Episode 102: How a Female, First-Gen American Founder Turned European Credit on Its Head | Meet Agata Dornan and Her $230M Boutique, Chepstow Lane
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When you think about European credit investing, most people assume it’s only for the big shops with billions under management. Agata Dornan, Founder & CIO of Chepstow Lane, is here to challenge that, and she’s doing it with smarts, grit, and real talk about what it really takes to succeed.
Agata’s path to launching her own boutique wasn’t a straight line. As a first-generation American who started out on the pre-med track at Middlebury, she discovered her passion for finance by accident (thanks to one random economics class) and never looked back.
In this episode, Agata sits down with Stacy to discuss:
How a single economics class flipped the script on her entire career
Why her liberal arts background is a secret weapon (and how it helped her land Chepstow Lane’s first big allocation)
Lessons from her time at Soros (including what it was like working on Wall Street after 9/11)
The hard truths every boutique founder needs to know about building a team and finding the right investors
How Chepstow Lane is winning by focusing on the white spaces most firms overlook
What she’s seeing in European credit today and why it might be time to pay attention
About Agata Dornan:
Agata led Soros Fund Management’s European credit investments from 2012 to 2020, managing corporate credit and financials, and became a partner and portfolio manager in 2016. Before that, she was a distressed research analyst at BlueMountain Capital in London, and she started her buy-side career at Soros in 2005 on the Distressed team, which later spun out to form Camulos Capital. She moved to London with them in 2006.
She began her career at Deutsche Bank in NYC as an investment banking analyst in Energy and Chemicals. Agata has been investing in the US since 2005 and in Europe since 2006, with deep experience in restructurings across sectors and credit cycles.
Agata graduated from Middlebury College in 2002 with a degree in International Politics and Economics, was awarded a Fulbright Scholarship, and completed programs at LSE and Tuck Business School. She lives in London with her husband and two children and is a dual US and Polish national.
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TRANSCRIPT
Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors.
[00:00:00] Stacy Havener: You wanna talk about Cool up and coming founders of investment boutiques. How about a specialist in European credit? Founded by a first generation American who spent over eight years at legendary hedge fund House Soros. How about an emerging manager who is crossing the key milestones of track assets and performance and was just named to institutional investors?
[00:00:25] Stacy Havener: Hedge fund Rising Stars. How about a London based founder who isn't just smart as a whip, tough as nails and funny af, this founder is female. How about them apples? Insert me ready to run through a wall? Me, ADA, Dornan, founder and CIO of $220 million European Credit Specialist Investment Boutique Lane.
[00:00:53] Stacy Havener: Agata is one of my clients and has become one of my very close friends. She [00:01:00] is a rare bird. This one is special. The episode and the founder. Without further ado, meet Aga. Hey, my name is Stacey Haner. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the Toughest Boys Club, wall Street, I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow-on assets for investment boutiques, you could say against the odds.
[00:01:31] Stacy Havener: Yeah, understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk here, money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college mixed with happy hour.
[00:01:56] Stacy Havener: Pull up a seat, grab your notebook, and get ready to be [00:02:00] inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the Billion dollar Backstory podcast.
[00:02:11] Stacy Havener: Aga, thank you so much for being here today. This is my favorite part of podcasting right here, right now, because I get to introduce our listeners to my friends and my clients, and it's a joy to have you with us. Thank
[00:02:27] Agata Dornan: you so much for having me.
[00:02:29] Stacy Havener: So we get to start with my favorite thing. Especially here with you, which is your backstory.
[00:02:36] Stacy Havener: So tell us, you're sitting here as a founder, fund manager, is this what you always envisioned? Like did you know this was your path, this was your dream from when you were little? Absolutely not. I had,
[00:02:49] Agata Dornan: I had no connections to the world of finance. No one in my family worked in finance. I didn't really know what investment banking was [00:03:00] until I got to college.
[00:03:01] Agata Dornan: I was a total science nerd. I was on the science team in high school, took extra science classes. My dad was an engineer and I was on the pre-med track to be a doctor. I went to Middlebury was pre-med there. And Middlebury is a fantastic liberal arts school. And as part of the graduation requirement, they force you to take classes.
[00:03:25] Agata Dornan: Outside your major, which at the time seemed like a huge drag as you're flipping through a coursebook and you're basically ticking the box trying to fulfill a requirement. So I settled on an economics class because I thought that would at least be tactical, um, and would satisfy the requirement. And something in that class really clicked for me.
[00:03:49] Agata Dornan: Um, just to take a step back, I'm first generation American. My parents are Polish immigrants. My dad left Poland in the fifties under communism. [00:04:00] Really like classic American dream. And sitting in that economics class and hearing from an academic standpoint, linking that into policy and something that really shaped my personal life and really informed and contextualized why my family had left, why family that stayed behind was.
[00:04:24] Agata Dornan: Living under the conditions they were back in Poland. I spent summers before the wall came down visiting grandparents in Warsaw and really kind of understanding that from an academic framework. And so after that economics class, I really did a 180. I changed my major. My parents were not impressed at all.
[00:04:47] Agata Dornan: At all. Really, really not cool. Everyone in my family was either a doctor, a lawyer, or an engineer like my dad. So for me to say, I'm gonna [00:05:00] study politics and economics, they questioned what I was going to do with that when I graduated. So I changed majors basically halfway through. I then started after graduation.
[00:05:12] Agata Dornan: I was very fortunate to land a job in banking because I. The week before we submitted resumes for recruiting, nine 11 happened. And that was such a tragedy. And as a senior who was looking for, what am I gonna do when I graduate? Um, off the banks didn't come back for recruiting. And Middlebury is a wonderful school, but there's no finance degree there, so it's not necessarily a natural fit.
[00:05:41] Agata Dornan: And so I was so fortunate to get a seat at DB in New York and. Part of that first year was really just surviving. We went through so many rounds of job cuts and being fortunate to survive and keep that seat. And that was really baptism of fire [00:06:00] because everyone was getting so much experience because there were just less people.
[00:06:05] Agata Dornan: And so I was really like right place, right time in terms of learning, um, getting a tremendous amount of experience while I was there. And I was also at the right place, right time for credit. That bank was crushing it in credit. They were using their balance sheet and I worked on some amazing credit deals.
[00:06:23] Agata Dornan: And so that is where I, you know, took what I was learning in school and at college. And that quantitative part of my previously science background. Yeah. And applying that in my first job on Wall Street.
[00:06:39] Stacy Havener: What an incredible story. Thank you for sharing even the qualitative bits, I think. In hindsight, when somebody hears your story, all those moves make sense.
[00:06:51] Stacy Havener: But I can only imagine putting myself in your shoes and having that conversation with your parents about this change and not [00:07:00] knowing even that like investments was where it was gonna lead you. It was just sort of like, this is something that's lighting me up and I'm gonna take this path and see where it leads.
[00:07:08] Stacy Havener: So now you're in banking, your worlds are connecting. The science side's coming in. This kind of macro economic side is coming in. How do you go from there to the investment side?
[00:07:21] Agata Dornan: So. I had spent two years on a team that was doing a tremendous amount in terms of leverage, finance, activity, IPOs, private equity, um, LED deals, and I was able to leverage that into a job at Soros in New York on their distress team.
[00:07:43] Agata Dornan: And so after two years at db, I made the change successfully where I was able to use the work I was doing to inform investment decisions that my actual team was making rather than passing it off. Yeah. To someone more senior who was then [00:08:00] pitching it to a board. And sometimes those pitch books that you spend all that time on don't actually lead to anything.
[00:08:05] Agata Dornan: And that was really the start of my career on the buy side.
[00:08:08] Stacy Havener: So you're on the distress desk at Soros in New York. I mean, I can imagine now it's really getting even more interesting, more exciting, like you're kind of vibing. Um, were you focused on non-US deals or was this mostly US deals, or like how does that specialty kind of take you into the space you're in now?
[00:08:29] Agata Dornan: So I started working on US deals. Okay. My group was doing both US and European, so I was dabbling in Europe and very soon after I joined, our team spun out. So I had had a little taste of what the, um, yeah. Startup journey was. Fundraising was very different then than it is today, but I was doing both US and European investing and then after a year they asked me to move to London.
[00:08:59] Agata Dornan: So I've been [00:09:00] over here for close to 20 years and focused on, on all there is to do on this side of the pond. Amazing.
[00:09:09] Stacy Havener: So at the time when you did the spin, were you like, this is fun? Like, did you envision at some point that you would actually start your own firm? Like did it kind of plant a seed for you then?
[00:09:20] Stacy Havener: At the
[00:09:21] Agata Dornan: time, less so simply because I was very green. Like I, when I joined, I didn't really know what a hedge fund was. Yeah. I knew that I was joining an organization that had been very successful, led by someone who had a lot of influence as it relates to policy. But I was really learning the ropes and I was so fortunate.
[00:09:43] Agata Dornan: I had the most amazing mentor who I worked with both at Soros the first time, and then as part of the, and then the second time I, so, and call him LP currently. Took the time [00:10:00] and was willing to listen and answer what I thought were really maybe basic questions and really invested in my career and was, was really like a, a mentor, um, an advocate.
[00:10:13] Agata Dornan: And we were just having, you know, the absolute best time building a business. That's great.
[00:10:19] Stacy Havener: And I love that you added in that that person is supporting you now on your journey. Yeah. Because I think for so many founders, that is kind of where it starts. Not just in the support and the confidence building that that person gives you, but also when you decide to make the leap that sort of, that friends and family round when you call them and say, Hey, I'm doing this.
[00:10:40] Stacy Havener: Like I need advice. And then when they say like, I will back you. I mean that is, there's so much emotion and pride and also like, you know, I will run through a wall for you built into that. Absolutely. That's amazing.
[00:10:53] Agata Dornan: Absolutely. And that, you know, that is really part of when you go to launch, you know who is gonna be your [00:11:00] quote unquote cabinet, who's gonna be, yeah.
[00:11:02] Agata Dornan: Your advisors, the people you go to, not just for financial support in terms of, you know, committing dollars, but also mm-hmm. All that emotional support and that cheerleading along the way because it's not a straight line and it does take time. And you need that at different points along the way. Even if you are very convicted about your strategy and what you're doing and your path, having that group of people is, is incredible.
[00:11:29] Agata Dornan: And having that vote of confidence from someone that's known me for Yeah. Over, you know, two decades is really phenomenal.
[00:11:36] Stacy Havener: Yeah. So what was the moment, you know, you're managing distress, European special sits, you're doing this, you're in London, you're doing all the things. Like what was the moment when you said, I'm gonna start my own thing?
[00:11:49] Stacy Havener: Like what was the catalyst for that?
[00:11:51] Agata Dornan: So for me, I have, like you, I have young kids. Mm-hmm. Um, and I. I was at a point in my career [00:12:00] professionally and at a point in my life personally, where I could dedicate the time in pursuing this dream. Um, my youngest was just starting kindergarten or reception. If you're based in the UK and being able to have that, you know, mental bandwidth to devote to this because Stacy, you know, like you're all in, there's no vacation, there's no switching off.
[00:12:25] Agata Dornan: You are on call all the time. You own all the problems, um, that span the gamut. Things that are predictable and things that are unpredictable. And so it was finally my time to do this for myself. And I was in a position where I personally could do that and make that.
[00:12:45] Stacy Havener: It's so inspiring and it's, it's inspiring.
[00:12:48] Stacy Havener: It's also a rollercoaster before 9:00 AM you've lived like 18 lives. Like Yes, it's, it's all the things. And we can unpack some of those, but one of the moves I think you did so well out of the gate, and I wanna talk about just the [00:13:00] successes and the challenges of starting your own business. You brought somebody in that was a compliment to your unique ability.
[00:13:09] Stacy Havener: And I think this is something that founders really struggle with because as a fund manager, you know your unique ability, you know what lights you up, you know what you wanna do, this is what you're building the business around. But to your point, there's so much more that goes into it. And I think a lot of founders start drowning in all the other hats.
[00:13:30] Stacy Havener: That they didn't have to wear when they were at their previous shop. So talk a little bit about that.
[00:13:35] Agata Dornan: Yeah, so my COO is amazing. We are very complimentary in terms of what we focus on and also personality wise. And so it's very like yin and yang. Mm-hmm. And finding that balance with a work colleague, it was really important to me to have a COO that had been at multiple funds [00:14:00]
[00:14:00] and had been
[00:14:00] Agata Dornan: part of launches that were successful.
[00:14:03] Agata Dornan: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:03] And
[00:14:04] Agata Dornan: part of launches that were not successful. Ooh. And what are those learning experiences and avoiding those, because for me, I have. Several ex-colleagues that had successfully launched funds that were north stars. Right. And that was sort of always in front of me. You know, this is what I want to achieve, this is where we're going and this is how we're going to get there.
[00:14:27] Agata Dornan: But there's so much practical, some of it is admin and some of it is just time and experience. And having someone that's going to help you get up that curve Yeah. Very quickly and understands and has been down this road before, has been fantastic. And I think, you know, the advice that I give all my friends who say they're thinking about launching, I always say CO is the most important hire you make.
[00:14:52] Agata Dornan: Yeah. Hands down. Look, every hire is important. We are a very small team. Mm-hmm. Um, but who you [00:15:00] hire to go into business with? Mm-hmm. Who is there when times are good, when times are bad. Problem solving that is key. Like who is gonna be in your foxhole? Yeah. Um, you know, to help you out and really advise
[00:15:12] Stacy Havener: you and, and lean on and to give you the space to do your unique ability so you're not backed down in all this stuff that needs to be done in order for the business to run.
[00:15:24] Agata Dornan: 100%. It's all about Okay. He is phenomenal at taking stuff off my plate mm-hmm. To allow me to focus. On the portfolio. We're still at a time in fundraising where allocators want to speak to primarily me. Yeah, yeah. And that is a, you know, that is a demand on my time. And so taking those things off my plate has allowed us to grow the business, build an awesome portfolio, and really strike that balance because everyone is human and they [00:16:00] need to have some of that work life balance.
[00:16:03] Agata Dornan: Yeah. It's very difficult when you're a founder and still sort of, you know, early on in, in the life cycle.
[00:16:09] Stacy Havener: So let's talk about that. So you're a specialist in an asset class that's super niche that requires you to do, I mean, all work requires, you know, a. Deep experience time, all the things talk a little bit.
[00:16:24] Stacy Havener: So why don't we do like a snapshot of where you are today and then let's go back to when you started and kind of go through that process. So for people to really understand, let's just take a minute and talk about the strategy and the type of portfolio you're running so they get the context of what's going on.
[00:16:41] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:42] Agata Dornan: So Chapto is a European credit opportunities fund. We run a semi concentrated book of 20 to 30 names, both long and short. We don't use leverage, we focus on the whole suite of the credit spectrum, so everything from [00:17:00] reforming stress to special situations. And we do everything from corporates, banks, and sovereigns.
[00:17:06] Agata Dornan: So it's a very, very wide universe where, uh, seven people today, including myself and our a UM is 230 million.
[00:17:16] Stacy Havener: Okay, and this is year. We're in year.
[00:17:19] Agata Dornan: We will have our three year anniversary in October of this year.
[00:17:24] Stacy Havener: Okay. So fantastic journey so far, even though I know it, there's a lot of bumps and highs and lows and all the things, but you're doing it.
[00:17:35] Stacy Havener: You're doing it successfully. You're delivering for your LPs, and it's happening, and I want you to hear that because I do think we put a lot of expectation on ourselves of what success should look like and how fast it should happen.
[00:17:52] Agata Dornan: Totally. I got some amazing advice when I was launching. I was sitting with a friend.
[00:17:59] Agata Dornan: We had worked together [00:18:00] previously. She was at a fund that she had helped launch and she gave me great advice. She said it is gonna be twice as hard and take twice as long.
[00:18:09] Yeah,
[00:18:09] Agata Dornan: and that is exactly true. We launched in October, 2022, so we're fundraising, you know, pre-launch. Russia had invaded Ukraine, interest rates spiked.
[00:18:22] Agata Dornan: So credit's down, equities are down. Allocators are basically losing money on both sides of their portfolio if they're, you know, in credit inequities. No one wanted to invest in Europe. Right. Because most of the capital that we were speaking to was based in the US Yes. And there was a lot of like Europe's very complicated, you know, energy spikes, war, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:18:44] Agata Dornan: And people have naturally a home bias. Yeah. And that persisted for a very long time. Plus we were in that fundraising environment where typically that release valve for emerging managers is [00:19:00] VC and PE returning capital. Mm-hmm. To allocators that they redeploy to emerging managers.
[00:19:06] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:07] Agata Dornan: Past three years have been very different in terms of capital returns.
[00:19:11] Agata Dornan: Right. Um, the FT did an article with a graph that looks like Pelman Louise, like for emerging manager capital, just like going off a cliff. It was very sobering, you know, it's true because where are allocators getting Yeah. You know, new capital front that, that's very difficult because typically they're getting it back from privates and that's really not been the case to the extent it previously was.
[00:19:34] Agata Dornan: And so that for emerging managers, not just us, but really everyone
[00:19:39] mm-hmm. Has,
[00:19:39] Agata Dornan: has been challenging. And so you have to know that if you're going into this business and you're launching, like you don't control the cadence of the fundraising. Yeah. You have a beautiful spreadsheet with a budget that you and your COO pour over with all the like permutations and that is so cute and nice, but the reality of what that looks like [00:20:00] is not up to you.
[00:20:01] Agata Dornan: Yeah, it's just not up to you. And so you really do need to be patient and you need to accept that. And many things are beyond your control, but what you can control is what you're doing day to day, how you communicate with allocators, what your strategy is, and go from there.
[00:20:18] Stacy Havener: It's such a great point that I want people to hear because of course you're gonna come up with a plan.
[00:20:25] Stacy Havener: Of course you're gonna have, you know, a certain amount of assets raised by a certain amount of time, and then that's all gonna basically go out the window. But if you focus on trying to control that, it's actually so damaging to the fundraising effort. Like if you're like, I need them, like all of it, I mean, so many levels.
[00:20:46] Stacy Havener: Like it starts to wreak of desperation and you know, all the things. So I love the idea of sort of letting go of the timing because the allocator's gonna invest when it's right for them. Absolutely. And you, it's [00:21:00] not about when you need their money. And I think that's a really big shift. So you mentioned something I wanna come back to, which is that the allocators who have invested with you early, your founders share allocators and even the, the allocators who are coming in now, they have had access to you.
[00:21:20] Stacy Havener: Yes. Did you go into this knowing that that was gonna be part of the process? Like were you ready to sort of do that founder-led sales thing?
[00:21:30] Agata Dornan: I. I was expecting to do that simply because we don't currently have Yeah. A person sitting in an IR function and having spoken to friends who have successfully raised and closed funds, that's what they said, you know, first three years, they really want to talk to you and understand your vision and what's your, you know, near term plan, and then five year plan and what does this business look like in five years and make sure that everyone is, is aligned.
[00:21:58] Agata Dornan: And so I [00:22:00] appreciated what the time commitment was. Mm-hmm. I think the bit that really surprised us was a little bit how opaque that fundraising process was going to be, because everyone has a different timeline.
[00:22:12] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:22:12] Agata Dornan: Right. Some allocators want to meet you early, they wanna track you for a year or two years.
[00:22:19] Agata Dornan: Some have different milestones, whether that's a UM because they have concentration limits or track record for. That is a huge part of what we do when we meet with allocators is listening to what they're saying, asking questions, and not turning those first meetings into a TED Talk where I'm doing all the talking and they're, you know, looking at their watch and, and waiting, waiting for the next meeting.
[00:22:47] Agata Dornan: Because we need to do our diligence too, right? Ultimately, a hundred percent. We're ultimately trying to solve a problem they have and we might not be the right fit for them. Sign. It's a great point because [00:23:00] if we're not aligned, then that's not a good partnership for us as gps either, right? Mm-hmm. So what we really want are investors that understand what we're doing, what we're offering, both in terms of diversification, return profile, volatility profile, et cetera, really meets their needs.
[00:23:18] Agata Dornan: Mm-hmm. And they can be with us on this journey for a long time. We are capacity constrained. I was just gonna say. Yep. Even more important, so. So we're capacity constrained at one and a half billion. And so when I think about building our allocator list, mm-hmm. I'm really thinking about 30 LPs at 50 million ahead.
[00:23:43] Agata Dornan: Yeah. And it's kind of like curating a dinner party. Who do you want to be at that table? And who is aligned and who is gonna be on that journey with you? And yes, some tickets will be much bigger and some tickets will be smaller. But [00:24:00] really it's about alignment and who gets you. And that is a green flag for them.
[00:24:07] Agata Dornan: And. That's another piece of advice I would give to people who are, you know, just starting out that we really learned is you have to ask a lot of questions in those first meetings. It helps you better understand what that allocator's green and red flags are. Mm-hmm. Helps you understand, is that the rate fit for you as a fund manager, and is that a relationship that you want to build over time with them?
[00:24:33] Agata Dornan: And is that ultimately going to lead to a good outcome, not just for them, but
[00:24:38] Stacy Havener: for you as well? The dinner party analogy is so great on so many levels because it's also about them with each other. We were chatting on LinkedIn this morning through comments, and we were sort of talking about the idea that as you're [00:25:00] growing an allocator's, probably not gonna put their full position in on day one with you, especially if it's an emerging manager type of situation.
[00:25:07] Stacy Havener: They're gonna put a certain amount in and they're gonna grow with you. And especially in the early days, there is a lot of magic to use your words in what happens between the LPs, early adopters, who tell other people in their network, et cetera. And it all just really aligns with that dinner party idea.
[00:25:29] Stacy Havener: So can you talk a little bit about just how the LPs have sort of helped and supported each other?
[00:25:34] Agata Dornan: Yeah, so something happened 12 months ago, which was wonderful and was something I didn't appreciate would be so important for fundraising, and that is really this. Virtuous circle of referrals from LPs. So I mentioned we don't have an IR function currently.
[00:25:56] Agata Dornan: I've never had to raise money before, so I, I don't [00:26:00] have an existing Rolodex of LPs to pull from. So for us, what's been amazing is allocators that are currently invested, talking to other allocators that are in their network and saying, Hey, we've just made an allocation. You should take a look for whatever reason.
[00:26:20] Agata Dornan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Whether it's they have a gap in their existing portfolio or they've had a capital return that they need to redeploy. But that has been amazing. And we had one investor who was a single digit ticket mm-hmm. Who was very early who the CIO. Absolutely lovely. Like great conversations and she recommended us to an endowment.
[00:26:46] Agata Dornan: That was not on our radar screen, was not on our cap intros radar screen. That ended up being a 50 million ticket that we only did IDD on Zoom. ODD was in person, but IDD was [00:27:00] on Zoom and that was a 50 million ticket that let us close our founder share class in January.
[00:27:05] Stacy Havener: Amazing.
[00:27:06] Agata Dornan: And that, that is amazing.
[00:27:08] Agata Dornan: Mm-hmm. Right? It really is. It's when we get to that point of a referral that sort of narrowing those six degrees of separation. Mm-hmm. And that allocator probably knows that the allocator they're speaking to has a similar profile, similar green flags that they're looking for. That is fantastic. Yeah. And I'm so, so grateful when we get those referrals.
[00:27:32] Agata Dornan: That's been, yeah, that's been amazing.
[00:27:35] Stacy Havener: And again, going to your idea that it's this two-way street, if you're only gonna have absolutely 30 ish investors, you really do wanna be thoughtful about who they are. All of the things, and I, I. Sometimes in our industry, because we tend to be very zero sum and like, you know, every dollar is a good I'm rate for everyone's portfolio.
[00:27:57] Stacy Havener: You know, all the green dollars are fine for me. And the [00:28:00] reality is that's just not true. It's not true. No, it's not the allocator, it's not true for you.
[00:28:05] Agata Dornan: And it's also if you're going to be a boutique, which we are, it also just creates more work further down. Yeah. Because we really want partners that are gonna stay.
[00:28:15] Agata Dornan: We want partners that are gonna continue to scale in as they have done and not necessarily, you know, come in, come out, and then I'm needing to fundraise again to backfill that capital. That's, that's not a great outcome for, for anyone really. No.
[00:28:34] Stacy Havener: And going back to the idea of things we can control, things we should work on like this, which is something that we wanna control and have an active, intentional philosophy around.
[00:28:43] Stacy Havener: But then there are other things that we can control that are just like we're gonna have to deal with, such as the macro environment that we're in, that you've been in, you know, in the asset class that you specialize in. And really, it's been a headwind, I [00:29:00] would say. Would you agree that was sort of a headwind when we were
[00:29:04] Agata Dornan: launching?
[00:29:04] Agata Dornan: Yeah, for sure. It was a headwind because everyone was really in a lot of pain in 2022. Right. And just completely turned off to all things in Europe.
[00:29:15] Stacy Havener: So tough. And again, can't control it, but it is what it is. You got a place for. It's what it's, yeah. And so how did you then and now, besides the macro bit, like how do you differentiate.
[00:29:28] Stacy Havener: What makes you special? Besides the asset class itself, which I think, you know, has its own embedded specialization within it, but how have you kind of come to a space, you know, credit's one of those spaces where the sort of myth or like what they say about credit is it's, it's like for the big shops, you have to be big to be successful in credit.
[00:29:50] Stacy Havener: Like boutiques really can't play there. Yeah. And so how have you kind of embraced your boutique nature, your specialism, and kind of talked [00:30:00] about what makes you different?
[00:30:01] Agata Dornan: Yeah, so we have spent a lot of time. Almost over communicating to investors what our specific sub strategy in European credit looks like and how that leads to not just alpha generation, but a differentiated portfolio.
[00:30:19] Agata Dornan: Yeah. Because some of the allocators we speak to have allocations to funds that are, you know, 10, 15, 20 billion, but perhaps they want some diversification away from some of those names, and that is a. That we can play in because of our size. We don't think our size is a hindrance. We think it's an advantage.
[00:30:40] Agata Dornan: It means we can be nimble and agile. We sort of map out which names in our portfolio have performed that are kind of less available or less investible to the bigs. Yeah. And so investors get a lot of information on, okay, I've told you this, I've told you [00:31:00] this story about what we're going to do. Mm-hmm.
[00:31:03] Agata Dornan: And then when they get the data, when we send our quarterly or monthly letters, they're actually seeing it in real time. Yeah. Over time. And oftentimes in meetings when allocators or potential allocators are, are meeting with us, we are telling them about situations that are not on their radar screen.
[00:31:20] Agata Dornan: Even though they've done, you know, a roadshow of London and they've met with, you know, 10 other managers in the space. And ultimately they're looking for something different. Right. Right. That's it. And that is something we lean into and it's been so far so good.
[00:31:41] Stacy Havener: Yeah, I think it's a great point because again, that zero sum mentality in our industry is so strong and so rampant that I think a lot of times fund managers go into a situation with an allocator and think, I've gotta kick somebody out.
[00:31:57] Stacy Havener: I've gotta beat somebody out. I've gotta be better [00:32:00] than what they're using, and I've gotta prove that to them, which sort of takes the whole conversation to performance and stats and all these things. And while to your point, stats matter and like you gotta be good at what you do. Okay. So table stakes, but they don't just have one credit manager.
[00:32:16] Agata Dornan: No. A lot of them have multiple one.
[00:32:18] Stacy Havener: Exactly. So if you just can own.
[00:32:23] Agata Dornan: Yes.
[00:32:24] Stacy Havener: And show how you're complimenting the bigs and you know, like the names that you're in aren't even trafficked. It wouldn't even be like a blip for some of these players. Yeah. Because they're, and that's fine.
[00:32:35] Agata Dornan: Yeah. Because those guys need to solve for deploying X hundred million of capital in a cap stack.
[00:32:43] Agata Dornan: Yeah. And that universe in Europe is, is finite on the public side. Certainly. So we're able to play where the white space is. Mm-hmm. Where things are falling between the cracks. Um, and it's been a great source of, you [00:33:00] know, alpha generation for us and has been a huge differentiator. Yeah. On my Bloomberg header.
[00:33:06] Agata Dornan: So if you're ever on Bloomberg, you know, you can look someone up and usually people put a quote or something. I have this old foolish proverb, which is not my circus, not my monkeys. And so when you say stay in your lane, that is basically Yeah. What that quote is like, you cannot worry about what everyone else is doing.
[00:33:31] Agata Dornan: Yeah. Right. No, you can't. You have to know who you are, what your strategy is, and stick to that and own that. Yep. Otherwise, you're gonna be chasing your tail. And then, you know, I'm not competing on size, I don't wanna compete on size, we're competing on other key differentiators, and so that is our lane and that's what we're sticking to.
[00:33:54] Agata Dornan: Yeah.
[00:33:54] Stacy Havener: I think it's a great point. You've said something, it's the, that proverb also like as a [00:34:00] business owner, that proverb is just like gold, right? Yes. A hundred percent. Um, you said something when I first met you and I was like, wait, what does this mean? And it's still one of my favorite things you talk about, which is in credit, you need to have really sharp elbows.
[00:34:16] Stacy Havener: Yes. Can you talk about that? Sure.
[00:34:20] Agata Dornan: So credit as an asset class, as a different convexity profile from, from equities. Right. Your, your upside is capped because you know your max payout is, is par plus accrued and accrued being your coupon. Um, we have a lot of legal work that we need to do. Each fund that's issued has an indenture.
[00:34:43] Agata Dornan: There are, you know, hundreds of pages that go in that indenture. I used to write those as an investment banker. Gosh. And understanding the nuances of what's allowed in those indentures, what maneuvers companies can do, what private equity firms can do. On top of that, you have what's [00:35:00] called creditor on credit or violence.
[00:35:02] Agata Dornan: Which is a term that that gets used often. And it basically means that bond holders in the same part of the capital structure try to improve their position at the expense of others. And that is very prevalent in the us. It's becoming a little bit more prevalent in Europe. There are reasons why it will unlikely to be be the same as it is in the states, but understanding all the ways things can go wrong mm-hmm.
[00:35:31] Agata Dornan: Is a huge part of, of credit investing and understanding what that margin of safety is. And that requires doing a lot of, you know, sometimes tedious legal work and understanding and making sure that you're protected when you're making these investments. And you really understand what can go wrong.
[00:35:51] Stacy Havener: And I would assume given the part of the credit market that you're in, there's even more layers.
[00:35:57] Agata Dornan: Yeah, because most of the capital structures we invest [00:36:00] in, they don't have one tranche. There's not typically one bond. There's usually multiple bonds being issued. Some of those bonds have different indentures, they have different security packages. And so what options the company has, what options the ultimate owner has, especially that's private equity or owned.
[00:36:16] Agata Dornan: Understanding the nuances and where you rank is hugely important. It's not very sexy, but it's very lucrative if you get it right.
[00:36:24] Stacy Havener: So to that end, and I know you mentioned the team, I just wanna come back to this. So the team you have now, how many people on the investment team including you? So we're five.
[00:36:34] Stacy Havener: Five. And what do you think the, what's the optimal amount of people you need to do this Well, at the size that you wanna be? We are there. Are you there? You're there. We're there, yeah. Amazing. Yeah, that's great. And I think that's part of it as well, isn't it? Like when you're building the business, it's easy to get caught up in the more is more, not just.
[00:36:57] Stacy Havener: The assets and the revenue and all of that. But there's a little [00:37:00] bit of, I think there's a little bit of a vanity metric around headcount.
[00:37:04] Agata Dornan: Yes, we do get asked that question a lot, I think, because our strategy is about building a semi concentrated portfolio. Mm-hmm. So we're 20 to 30 names. So you think, okay.
[00:37:17] Agata Dornan: Five investment professionals, 30 divided by five is six. Yep. Right. Can each person on the team come up with six killer trades in a year? Yeah. Yes. Yes they can. Um, if we had a hundred or 120 names in the portfolio, that becomes much more difficult to do. Having the setup that we have now. And so because of our portfolio framework
[00:37:46] mm-hmm.
[00:37:47] Agata Dornan: We are at the size in terms of headcount where we need to be. And I love having a flat and nimble structure. I've always thrived in environments where the team has been small, even if [00:38:00] it's been in a big organization. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because effectively everyone has ownership and agency. Everyone knows what someone else is working on.
[00:38:07] Agata Dornan: Everyone understands which way the puck is going, the direction of travel, what we're solving for, and it takes a little bit of that political element that sometimes happens at very large institutions where sometimes it becomes less about your work product and more about other things. Yeah. You know, it really is about the work and that is, again, back to that alignment with our LPs.
[00:38:33] Stacy Havener: Yes. I love that. And I think it's also, it's a nod back to something you said earlier, which is when you're in these meetings with allocators in the early days, they're not just asking you questions about your investment philosophy and your process and your portfolio. Even though as a fund manager, that's what you wanna talk about.
[00:38:53] Stacy Havener: Yep. They're asking you questions about your business.
[00:38:58] Agata Dornan: Yes. They're [00:39:00] taking especially, you know, pre-launch and immediately post-launch, they are taking business execution risk. They wanna understand your vision, where this business is going to be in five years, where it's gonna be in 10 years, and you scale this portfolio as a UM comes in, what is headcount going to look like?
[00:39:20] Agata Dornan: Where is your break even rate? All these things that they need to underwrite. Mm-hmm. Um, and. You need to be able to explain those things in addition to explaining why, you know, this trade is in the portfolio. That's right. Or why, you know, you decided to short this, for example. They need to have that whole picture to get that level of comfort before they can rate a check.
[00:39:46] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I think that's underestimated by, by fund managers.
[00:39:50] Agata Dornan: Yeah. They wanna see the vision and they want to understand that, you know, like Ina Garten says, be ready when the luck happens. Yes. Right. I
[00:39:58] Stacy Havener: love that quote. That's my favorite part of that book [00:40:00] actually. And
[00:40:01] Agata Dornan: you know, if you are in a fortunate position where all of a sudden a UM starts growing rapidly, can you, yes.
[00:40:09] Agata Dornan: Can you do what you did at a smaller a UM as you grow? Is it going to look and feel the same? Right. And they wanna understand, have you thought that through? What infrastructure do you need? All those things that are really business related versus portfolio related.
[00:40:27] Stacy Havener: That's right. And I think, you know, we've talked about this sort of throughout, but I wanna just kind of address it directly, which is I think in, especially in this business, but probably in all industries, like there's a standard that we think we should be as a fund manager, the things we should say in a meeting, the the way we should look, dress, talk, like all of it, you know, they're sort of like right outta central casting, here's what a fund manager is and you're not those things on [00:41:00] so many levels.
[00:41:01] Stacy Havener: Um, you're funny, you know, you have sides to you that I've seen you lean into and show and embrace. And how has that journey been to sort of unlearn the central casting, you know, fund manager and sort of embrace the authentic one?
[00:41:20] Agata Dornan: Yeah. So that has been a journey for sure. And thank you for helping me. Mm.
[00:41:24] Agata Dornan: With that, with that journey. So, look, I think in the beginning you're so excited to launch, right? Mm-hmm. Because so many people don't even get to that stage. Yeah. And you also feel this pressure to raise, and you're in the weeds with your portfolio, with your business, right. X the portfolio. And you know, I mentioned like you can't go into those meetings giving a TED talk, right?
[00:41:51] Agata Dornan: You need to give people people space. You need to give them a chance to talk and you need to understand what it is Yeah. What it is they're looking for. And in the [00:42:00] beginning you're just so excited, right? Like a little puppy. You're so excited to tell them about all the, you know, the opportunity set, how you built this business, how it's going to grow, all these things.
[00:42:13] Agata Dornan: And then you might wanna waterboard them with data that supports that. Okay. That is not great. That is not the way to win fans, right? And so part of it is just taking a breath and having that belief that if it's a conversation rather than a lecture, and they can see the data, right? Right there, they can request the data, right?
[00:42:39] Agata Dornan: Yeah. Sign an NDA, we'll send you the data, et cetera. But you have to take them to that point where you are explaining all the background, who you are, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are, how you're thinking about building this business, where this is going to be in five and 10 years. Before you get to that, like here is our [00:43:00] gigantic data pack.
[00:43:02] Agata Dornan: Right? Like yeah, you can't get that to them in the first meeting, right? No. They have to ask for it. And that is gonna be multiple meetings, right? The sales cycle is long. The sales cycle is long,
[00:43:12] Stacy Havener: it's long, it's long. And, and that journey of sort of realizing, again, especially in the early days, but I'd argue all the days that really these allocators are buying people, right?
[00:43:25] Stacy Havener: That whole people do business with people. Yeah. They're buying how you think and your philosophy and your process and your team and what you're building. And yes, they're investing in the portfolio along with you, but that's like, there's this product led mentality in our industry that like, I'm selling a fund, I'm pitching a fund.
[00:43:47] Stacy Havener: And I think that mentality leaves out so many layers of, well, not just how decisions are made, but just what is actually going on in a meeting and in a partnership. [00:44:00]
[00:44:00] Agata Dornan: I think something that really helped us was making sure we were communicating in times of deep market stress, what we were thinking and doing, concerned about and Right.
[00:44:16] Agata Dornan: You have to be careful because you don't want it to be like too long, didn't read. It needs to be like short and sharp, but it kind of gave potential allocators, some who are currently LPs a flavor of, okay, when there is an event like Credit Suisse and SVB failing or last month for example, right? Mm-hmm.
[00:44:37] Agata Dornan: Things that are not about what we want to do in terms of. Getting them to invest with us. Mm-hmm. But just sharing market insights. Yeah. Which we think will be valuable to them and valuable to them beyond where they make a credit allocation, whether it's us or someone else. Maybe it's valuable to them on the equity side or [00:45:00] someone who's more macro driven, but like, these are the things I'm thinking about.
[00:45:04] Agata Dornan: Yeah.
[00:45:04] Stacy Havener: In,
[00:45:04] Agata Dornan: in real time. And the feedback we've gotten from that has been so positive in terms of like, thank you for sharing that. That was useful because it armed them internally to understand and frame what we were seeing. And because I spent so much time in a macro shop. Yeah. That events I mentioned are very macro led and so some of the things I'm looking about and thinking about maybe look different from some others, but sharing those insights and if that helps them mm-hmm.
[00:45:36] Agata Dornan: With some. Completely other part of their business, even if they're not an existing investor, then that is like part of building that trust and that relationship and that has been, you know, super helpful for us in terms of keeping a dialogue and we might not have a meeting with someone immediately after we share those insights, and we don't do it all the time, but when there's something big mm-hmm.
[00:45:56] Agata Dornan: We like to share it because I think about it from an allocator [00:46:00] perspective, right? There you go. It's the end of the month. You've got, what, seven to 15 days after a month end, all of a sudden you get a ton of monthly news matters and all of April, it's crickets.
[00:46:14] Stacy Havener: Right. It's such a great point. What a great behavioral like little mismatch right there.
[00:46:21] Stacy Havener: It's such a great point. Yeah. The other thing I think that's unique about it, again, that central casting idea, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to write these really polished things and you know, talk about what the Fed is doing. Yeah. And it's kind of like a formula that's here's how to write a market commentary and typically they're boring and they don't really say anything new.
[00:46:42] Stacy Havener: And by the time it gets through compliance, the shit's changed anyway, so it's like not even relevant. Yeah. And it's so sale. Yep. Yeah. What I like about the way that you're approaching it, you're still like still compliant. It's all the things, but it's from the desk of a G. Like it's your thoughts sometimes.
[00:46:58] Stacy Havener: Sometimes when I read 'em I'm [00:47:00] like, there's like some hilarious gif or something in some meme or something in there, and like there's personality. It's not just like, here's the data. Tell me your unique point of view on what's happening. And I think this is a great segue actually, because we are in a very different environment today than when you started, and there's lots of talk right now about what's happening in Europe, like is Europe finally, is international finally going to have its day again?
[00:47:33] Stacy Havener: And I'd love for people to just get a glimpse of like exactly what we're just talking about. Like what are you thinking? What are you seeing here in terms of the opportunity set.
[00:47:43] Agata Dornan: So I think there's been a new dialogue over the past two to three months about diversification. Um, we've certainly heard that from allocators who maybe have [00:48:00] been over allocated to the US and are now considering, is that really what we want going forward?
[00:48:08] Agata Dornan: Are there opportunities in Europe? And really what we've been trying to do is. Show them okay. What the opportunity set is in Europe, how you're not giving up any upside by being in Europe versus the US and perhaps that diversification mm-hmm. Has real value, especially as things are changing so rapidly from day to day in terms of new slow, I certainly am never going to make the case that everyone is going to dump the US and move into Europe or Asia.
[00:48:46] Agata Dornan: That's certainly not what we believe, but I think just a small shift. Mm-hmm. Outta the us, into other geographies, especially into Europe. Our market is a third of the size of the [00:49:00] US so it really just takes a small shift from the US into Europe to have a really meaningful impact because of that denominator effect.
[00:49:09] Agata Dornan: Mm-hmm. We're seeing that in some of the most recent conversations we've had really since March and and April.
[00:49:19] Stacy Havener: And you have shared with me like you've even gone to some events and heard some people speak and had like light bulb moments of sort of like what's happening. Mm-hmm. What are some of the nuances and specifics around that?
[00:49:30] Stacy Havener: You do have some conflicting things. You have like some macro things that are maybe not all that great for non-US.
[00:49:37] Agata Dornan: Yeah, so look, I think one of the biggest moves we saw in April was really around the way US dollar assets traded. So whether that was treasuries or equities, but also how the US dollar traded, right?
[00:49:52] Agata Dornan: And so not everyone is a US dollar holder and the pain that foreign [00:50:00] investors felt, right? So mind you, the equity market has done a complete round trip, but in the moment. Yeah, in the moment. It feels like a very long time ago. It wasn't that long ago. In the moment, if you were like a Euro denominated investor and you held the s and p, you were.
[00:50:16] Agata Dornan: Know you're down close to double digits on just the index and then down another, you know, seven or 8% on the currency. And a lot of investors had been under hedged and that had been totally fine for a decade. And then we get this big event and that all of a sudden looked terrible.
[00:50:39] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:50:40] Agata Dornan: And people were moving portfolio allocations around on the back of that.
[00:50:44] Agata Dornan: And one of the things we look at every day is, you know, where are rates and, and where is the US dollar? And what do fund flows look like? We always invest on fundamentals, but I'm very aware that there are large foreign holders of some [00:51:00] of the assets and markets that we traffic in that are looking at our asset class and the US market in a very different way from the way we are.
[00:51:11] Agata Dornan: And we have to just really have that awareness of what other people are solving for too.
[00:51:16] Stacy Havener: I think that's it. And also it was a glimpse, as you said, like even if things have round tripped or we've bounced back in certain respects, I think that glimpse of the pain Yep. And what could be happening. It does seem like it's a shift where allocators are stepping back and really rethinking at a high level their exposures.
[00:51:39] Stacy Havener: I think, you know, there's sort of a message in here. There's this like, again, I don't know, portfolio managers just do this where it's like, you know what, what environment does your asset class do well and, and when does it not? And of course, like the tendencies to be like, it's always a great time, always a great time for, and like it's always great.
[00:51:57] Stacy Havener: It's always great and it's bullshit. We all know it. [00:52:00] And yet that's what fund managers do. But I think, I don't know, as somebody who cheers for the underdog and who remembers, I mean, I'm dating myself here, but remembers when international had a really, you know, valuable place in a portfolio and on the equity side and the credit side, and when small caps actually mattered versus large caps.
[00:52:19] Stacy Havener: Like all these things that sort of made our ecosystem interesting and portfolios interesting. I mean, I'm cheering for that a little bit just because of active management and because of boutiques and specialists and all those things. But yeah, I mean, interesting is good. Yeah. And there's
[00:52:37] Agata Dornan: something to be said for diversification, right?
[00:52:40] Agata Dornan: Yeah, yeah. Whether it's, you know, the number of names in the portfolio, or whether it's geographic diversification. You know, equities have round tripped, but the US dollar has not. Mm. So those under hedged. Foreign holders are still probably a little bit [00:53:00] uncomfortable, even though the s and p has come all the way back.
[00:53:04] Stacy Havener: Yeah, and I would imagine, again, I'm not an allocator, but you have an opportunity here if you wanna make a change. Like you can do it at a, maybe a different point, a different exit point when you're rebalancing or whatever decisions you're making. Okay. So you've mentioned this throughout, but I'm just gonna ask sort of the direct question here.
[00:53:24] Stacy Havener: What has surprised you most on the journey? So, I think one of the
[00:53:28] Agata Dornan: most surprising aspects of this journey has been how much money we've been able to raise over Zoom.
[00:53:35] Stacy Havener: Isn't that fascinating? We, wow.
[00:53:38] Agata Dornan: I, I love in-person meetings. I like going to conferences. I like seeing those like in-person body language cues.
[00:53:47] Agata Dornan: But when I look at the data on how we've raised mm-hmm. Over half our a UM has come. From Zoom only, IDD, which is really incredible [00:54:00] because you know, when you're a founder you're like, I have to get on a plane. Yep. You know, we're based in London, so it's, you know, new York's like an eight hour flight. It's not that far, but you're off the desk.
[00:54:08] Agata Dornan: Yeah. It's not as easy as if you're US based, but kind of taking that step back and taking a breath and you're like, actually I am able to communicate both via email and on Zoom and you can raise, you don't necessarily have to be going to the US if that's where your core client base is every month. That has been the hands down, the most surprising part.
[00:54:31] Stacy Havener: It's so interesting because it's become a way of life for us now. But I remember when the whole like video thing started pre COVID and I remember thinking to myself, this is never gonna be a thing in the investment space. Like you when everyone's like, you're still on mute. Yeah. Oh God. So you have to be in person.
[00:54:52] Stacy Havener: Are you kidding me? Yep. The amount of money that's moving around, there's no way someone's gonna do that over the computer. And I think you're right. I think it [00:55:00] has probably also specific to your situation probably helped a lot because Absolutely. Of the proximity and where your client base is. And you have been great about getting on a plane, but yet that is really interesting that probably someday when we have you back on the podcast, we should do a whole thing on like how to actually run a successful due diligence like an IDD meeting over Zoom.
[00:55:25] Stacy Havener: I think
[00:55:26] Agata Dornan: for us it's been. Regular communication Sort of little and often. Like after And before. Yeah, like after and before. Yep. Over communicating what the strategy is showing them, you know, you mentioned something in a meeting maybe like three months ago. Yeah. Then following up and showing them like actually what was the end result and how manifested into the portfolio so they can make that link.
[00:55:53] Agata Dornan: And then again, you know, there are lots of people that are, you know, following along that maybe aren't engaging until they're ready. Right? [00:56:00] Yeah. 'cause they might have something going on internally. The CIO may have changed and they have to re-underwrite the entire portfolio. Or maybe they don't currently have liquidity, but they may have liquidity later in the year.
[00:56:11] Agata Dornan: Right. You just don't know. That's what I'm talking about when I say, you know, some of the fundraising process is really opaque. And so it's your job to try to get as much information as you can so you can say, okay, is this someone that really is enjoying this conversation and wants to continue doing the work on us?
[00:56:32] Agata Dornan: And is there that alignment?
[00:56:34] Stacy Havener: It's a great point. It also, we can sometimes, because there's so much. That it's opaque in the process. And because people just, I mean human behavior is like you kind of hold your cards close to your chest, especially if like some things are going on that maybe you don't really wanna like dive into, but we can make assumptions about why something is happening and be totally wrong.
[00:56:56] Stacy Havener: Absolutely. And
[00:56:57] Agata Dornan: we are still refining this like [00:57:00] yeah, we launched with the seed. Our first big allocation came from a very high profile emerging manager program that if you would've asked me six months prior, wouldn't have even been on our top five to come in list. Right. But he was following and he was reading and then they made a big investment, which was amazing.
[00:57:21] Agata Dornan: He is been a phenomenal partner. And when I finally met him in person, I asked, I was like, what did it for you? And he said it was the communication. He was like, you tell us. What you're gonna do, then how you're gonna do it, and then what that means for portfolio returns after the fact. He is like, I know exactly what you are thinking along this way.
[00:57:46] Agata Dornan: And that really just fostered that building of trust, which is, you know, ultimately where you
[00:57:51] Stacy Havener: need to get to for allocators to come in. And how many fund managers think their communication skills are one of the things that's really gonna [00:58:00] differentiate them or help them build this business, like that's probably not high on their list.
[00:58:05] Agata Dornan: Thank you. Liberal arts
[00:58:06] Stacy Havener: degree. Thank you. Liberal arts degree. There we go. It's all about the communication. Well, I mean, look, this has been a fantastic conversation, ADA. I would love to end with a couple questions that give us even more of a picture of you and sort of what you're about. And I know you like to read, so I always say the first question's designed to be easy, but if you're, if you're a reader, it's maybe not, um, does not have to be a business book.
[00:58:34] Stacy Havener: But I wanna start with what book inspires you?
[00:58:38] Agata Dornan: Oh, I am a huge Adam brand fan. I love everything he does. I really, really enjoyed think again, he addresses like so many key points. It's not just about business, but it's in all parts of your life. Like learning from mistakes, biases. All these sort of [00:59:00] ways to challenge what you think you know to be true and where overconfidence can get you into trouble.
[00:59:10] Agata Dornan: I mean, that book is great. I love that book. That is
[00:59:12] Stacy Havener: a fantastic book and you're making me wanna read it again because it's been a few years since I've read that one. But it is one of those books you can come back to and take something new from every time. Great one. Okay, so we wanna take it from books to places.
[00:59:27] Stacy Havener: Yes. Okay. What place inspires you? What's your happy place?
[00:59:32] Agata Dornan: Oh, definitely the beach. There is something, there is something so calming and restorative about being near the water for me. Yeah, absolutely. The beach.
[00:59:43] Stacy Havener: Did I tell you about the book Blue Mind? No. Okay. I'll have to send it to you. It's one of those books that like I don't really tell a lot of people about because I recommended it to my family and they were all like, this is the most boring book I've ever read.
[00:59:53] Stacy Havener: And I'm like, what? I was in tears at the end of this book. Like this book is so moving to me, but [01:00:00] it is basically, it's stories, of course, but the science around what you just described, that that is actually a very real phenomenon. Scientific yeah. Thing. And obviously we're kindred spirits on that, so I love it.
[01:00:12] Stacy Havener: Okay, now we're going from books and places to music. I'm actually very interested in this one. So let's pretend you're giving a chalk in a stadium to your fans. Okay. Let's make it a TED Talk 'cause you've had these amazing Ted Talk jokes throughout. Okay, so you're giving a TED Talk, you're about to take the stage.
[01:00:32] Stacy Havener: What is your walkout anthem? This is gonna surprise you
[01:00:36] Agata Dornan: because we've talked about rap so much and I'm not gonna deliver. Um, I would pick Can't stop by the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
[01:00:47] Stacy Havener: This is not what I was expecting. I know
[01:00:50] Agata Dornan: it's a little twist Stacey.
[01:00:51] Stacy Havener: I love it. Now why Is it the lyrics or is it like the beats?
[01:00:55] Stacy Havener: Like what's the, the beat that
[01:00:57] Agata Dornan: opening? I don't know if it's like 30 or 40 [01:01:00] seconds. Yeah, where that builds is awesome. It's a fantastic song. I mean, if it was gonna be a rap song, what would it be? Or in Princeton it would have to be East Coast. It would be Biggie. It would be Biggie. I
[01:01:12] Stacy Havener: mean I know everyone.
[01:01:13] Stacy Havener: Or Rappers Delight. Right. Also a great one. I had my biggy shirt on the other day and I like tagged somebody in LinkedIn and they were like, don't do that. 'cause it's just proving how old we are. And I'm like, what? This is so devastating to me. Okay. That was fantastic. All right, here we go. What profession, other than your own, would you like to attend?
[01:01:34] Agata Dornan: Definitely medicine.
[01:01:35] Stacy Havener: Really? I was expecting you not to say that.
[01:01:38] Agata Dornan: No. I think I have accident prone kids that probably would've come in, especially in the last six months. That would've come in super handy. No, like in all seriousness, I think being able to help people in that way Yeah. Would be really incredible to do.
[01:01:56] Agata Dornan: I would need a physics tutor, but yeah, I would, I would like to, [01:02:00] to have a go at that.
[01:02:01] Stacy Havener: It's funny, it's one of the professions, interestingly, it's one of the professions that people say in the next question, which is the, what would you not like to do? Which I find interesting because investing does have so much math and science and precision to it, that you'd think it would kind of be a parallel.
[01:02:19] Stacy Havener: It's fascinating to me, and also because it's what you studied, it could either be something you still love or you're like, knowing in hell, would I ever go back? Yeah. But I love that that would, it would definitely be, you know, plan B. Plan B. Okay. How about this one? Then this would be Plan Z, which is the thing that you would not ever like to do.
[01:02:37] Agata Dornan: This one is also easy. I would not like to be a kindergarten teacher. I still have PTSD from homeschooling two kids during COVID on Zoom. No, thank you. God bless the teachers by the way. For real. God bless the teachers. They do amazing things. They keep everyone in line. Wow. That is, it is really not for me, like high school, [01:03:00] totally different story, but yeah, definitely would not crush it as a kindergarten teacher, I
[01:03:05] Stacy Havener: relate to that.
[01:03:06] Stacy Havener: They also always seem so happy. Yes. Which like where I would be like a ball of stress. Yeah, totally. Like they're just like in their joy. They are very special. Yeah. Okay. And last but not least, and this is a very long time from now, what do you want people to say about you after you've retired or left the industry?
[01:03:27] Agata Dornan: Wow. Um, I would like people to say that I did the right thing. Mm-hmm. Even if no one was looking. I really, I do like to help people. I like to mentor. I've mentored people for, you know, the last 15 years, like informally, informally. I was a huge beneficiary of people like paying it forward. Mm. Yeah. So that's, that's what I would like to be remembered for.
[01:03:55] Stacy Havener: That is really lovely. And I think there are [01:04:00] glimpses of that in this episode actually. Like the way that you're so willing to share what's worked well and what. Hasn't worked as well or what was a surprise, or what advice you'd give to other founders and other people trying to do the same thing. That's special.
[01:04:17] Stacy Havener: And thank you for sharing that with us. I loved this podcast, Stacy. Thank you for having me. Oh, I'm so glad. That really makes my day. Okay. If people wanna follow along, what's the best way for them to read what you're thinking, follow along on the journey, get in touch with you. So obviously LinkedIn.
[01:04:37] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm. Because you've
[01:04:38] Agata Dornan: coached me. Uh um. And people can also go to our website and reach out for qualified investors if they are interested in hearing more about what we're doing.
[01:04:50] Stacy Havener: I'll put a link to the website in the show notes. But what's the website? It's chapto cap com. Perfect. Thank you for being here, my friend.
[01:04:58] Stacy Havener: Thanks, Stacy. [01:05:00] Take care.
[01:05:04] Stacy Havener: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products, or to adopt any investment strategy. Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance.
[01:05:23] Stacy Havener: All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Haven or Haven, or Capital Partners.
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