Episode 114: John Bowman, CEO of CAIA, on Founder-Led Sales, Listening Tours, and Why Empathy Wins in Finance
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What if the most powerful thing a CEO can do… is show up?
That’s exactly what John Bowman is doing. As the new CEO of CAIA, he’s not sitting behind a desk or delegating from an ivory tower. He’s on a plane, in person, listening to the very people his organization serves.
In this episode, Stacy sits down with John to talk about the underrated power of founder-led sales (even when you’re leading a global organization), the ROI of empathy, and why success in finance is less about numbers and more about people than you think.
They dig into:
John’s backstory: The leadership lesson he learned after getting laid off at 29 with three kids
Why walking the “listening tour” isn’t just smart, it’s essential
How storytelling shaped his career in this number-obsessed industry
What CAIA’s member-first strategy can teach every founder and fund manager
Why he believes rejection is almost always redirection that’s either protecting you or leading you to where you’re meant to be
More About John:
John was appointed CEO for the CAIA Association in January 2025. He has devoted over 25 years to the asset management industry to recover the narrative of the value that the investment profession brings to society. He is a staunch public advocate for market integrity, long-termism, investor outcomes, diversity, human dignity and educational standards, as necessary ingredients to building a sustainable and healthy profession.
John previously served as Managing Director for the Americas for CFA Institute, a region comprised of 40+ countries from Canada, the U.S., Central America, South America and the Caribbean. Before that, John was a portfolio manager for non-US equity strategies at both Boston Company and SSgA for several years.
John is a prolific, speaker,writer and commentator, frequently keynoting industry conferences and appearing in investment and business publications such as the Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Pension and Investments, Financial Advisor, The Independent, Wealthmanagement.com and CNBC. Bowman earned a BS in Business Administration from Mary Washington College and is a CFA charterholder.
Books Mentioned in This Episode:
The Advantage – Patrick Lencioni | https://a.co/d/2msVUSw
The 6 Types of Working Genius — Patrick M. Lencioni | https://a.co/d/15S3sKW
Tribes: We Need You to Lead Us — Seth Godin | https://a.co/d/ajf88KP
Want More Help With Storytelling?
+ Subscribe to my newsletter to get a weekly email that helps you use your words to power your growth:https://www.stacyhavener.com/subscribe
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TRANSCRIPT
Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors.
[00:00:00] Stacy Havener: John Bowman was a portfolio manager, a very talented, long only international equity portfolio manager. That was his thing for years until it wasn't. This is about narrative. This is about pivots. Today's conversation is with a true leader and a wonderful storyteller about his journey to where he sits today.
[00:00:28] Stacy Havener: From Portfolio Manager to the CEO of the Kaya Association, the Chartered Alternative Investment Analyst Association, 14,000 members, 35 chapters around the globe. John Bowman has always been one of my favorite thinkers and writers. Having him in the podcast studio was a gift to me, and I know it will be to you.
[00:00:56] Stacy Havener: Grab your popcorn. Friends. This is a good one. [00:01:00] Meet John. Hey, my name is Stacey Haner. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the Toughest Boys Club, wall Street, I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow-on assets for investment boutiques, you could say against the odds.
[00:01:23] Stacy Havener: Yeah, understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk here, money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college mixed with happy hour.
[00:01:48] Stacy Havener: Pull up a seat, grab your notebook, and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the Billion dollar Backstory podcast.[00:02:00]
[00:02:02] Stacy Havener: John Bowman, this is such a joy for me because we have been friends for a while now, and this is the first time you're coming onto the podcast and this is the first time I get to hear along with the listeners, the backstory of you, how you got into this biz, and take it all the way up to the exciting seat that you are sitting in right now today.
[00:02:29] Stacy Havener: I wanna hear it all. So go back, did you always, was this like your career path, your plan from when you were a young child?
[00:02:37] John Bowman: So, Stacy, I have, well, one thing quickly to say to you and one to the listeners. So first of all, we should have done this. Either on a walk on the beach. Oh, which is your jam. Yeah. Or a run, which is my jam.
[00:02:48] John Bowman: Yes. On LinkedIn. So let's take rain checks. Okay. Yeah. On kind of the re reunion tour. Reciprocity
[00:02:53] Stacy Havener: reunion tour of
[00:02:54] John Bowman: our LinkedIn Jams. Yep. Yeah, yeah. And then for your listeners, so look, Kaya Fund one [00:03:00] and Kaya Fund two we're so massively big that it's probably not worth talking about today. So I realize I'm not nearly as exciting as your normal guest, but I'm gonna try to do my best.
[00:03:09] John Bowman: Oh my gosh. Thanks for having me.
[00:03:10] Stacy Havener: And here's the thing, there are so many, like, I don't know how much time we're gonna have. We need like hours, which is probably why we need to do the reunion tour, either on the beach or on a run. But there's gonna be gems in here. This is for the fund managers, this is for the allocators.
[00:03:27] Stacy Havener: You are for them. You are the guide for them, and we are so honored to have you. So, back story, is this what you always envisioned Young John?
[00:03:36] John Bowman: Uh, yes and no. So my dad was in the business, so my wonder years, you know, I, I don't know how many Wonder Year fans are on the podcast, but my Winnie Cooper was in Seattle.
[00:03:48] John Bowman: Um, those years that, uh, you kind of come of age, were in Seattle because my dad worked at Russell.
[00:03:55] Stacy Havener: Okay. And then
[00:03:55] John Bowman: when we moved back to the East coast, which is a very long story, we bounced around a bit. He [00:04:00] worked for a big Dutch asset management firm in Wilmington. So I was kind of, there were sprinklings at the dinner table, whatever that means about kind of managing money for clients, caring for people's long-term retirement, nest egg, dignity of their futures, et cetera.
[00:04:15] John Bowman: So that was, my dad had a, a huge fiduciary, ethical, and still does. Kind of anchor and ballast. Okay. Um, which is, by the way, probably the biggest thing I took from him and why I've ended up in kind of professional body career and leadership positions in the second half of my career is probably because of that.
[00:04:33] John Bowman: So, to answer your question, so when I got to college, there's part of every 18-year-old that is like, I will do anything but what my father or mother does. Yeah. Right. Uhhuh and I certainly had that revolutionary strand in me, but over time those were the classes, ironically, as much as I hated to admit it, that I enjoyed Yeah.
[00:04:51] John Bowman: More and ended up jumping into State Street Global Advisors was my first job outta college and, and some junior [00:05:00] performance management role in getting introduced a lot of the right place at the right time. A lot of volunteering, raising my hand. And, and little did I know, I suddenly ended up exactly where I didn't want to be.
[00:05:10] John Bowman: I will tell you one more funny story 'cause this is a back story. Ended up story. Yeah.
[00:05:14] Stacy Havener: And you ended up exactly where you, you didn't wanna be, I wanna come back to that too. So go back, way back machine.
[00:05:20] John Bowman: Yeah. So in Seattle, I'll just tell this funny story. God, in Seattle, you know, this is back when you would do show and tell of what your father or your mother did for a living.
[00:05:29] John Bowman: It was like career day. And I remember standing up and I said something to the effect, which is what, the way my dad would've articulated it, given what I've told you about his ballast, he would always say, you know, daddy, what do you do? And I, uh, I make money for people, right? It was always about the client.
[00:05:46] John Bowman: And so I stood up in front of my, you know, fourth grade class and my teachers, you know, I make, uh, my dad makes money for people. Literally, my father got a call, no, from, uh, I don't know, assistant principal. They thought we [00:06:00] had like a big industrial counterfeit machine in the basement and we were printing currency, which was awesome.
[00:06:07] Stacy Havener: That is so awesome. And that is like speaking of rebel, I mean, fourth grade rebel. Hi, how you doing? Like you just came in with, you know. The figurative guns blazing on that one.
[00:06:19] John Bowman: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh. So there you go.
[00:06:21] Stacy Havener: Okay, so then what was the comment you made about like, ending up exactly where you didn't wanna be?
[00:06:27] John Bowman: Well, despite some of those strands of rebellion Yes. In my teenage world,
[00:06:32] Stacy Havener: it's, uh,
[00:06:32] John Bowman: the, the, I, I just loved it. Yeah.
[00:06:36] Stacy Havener: But, so here's the question I have. Very reflective one because I very much get that. Like, we wanna do the thing that our parents didn't do. And so if your parents were in a very white collar asset management career, you sort of wanna go opposite of that.
[00:06:52] Stacy Havener: If your parents weren't in that, maybe that's what you end up wanting to do, which is myself and I know some other fund managers who've had that journey, [00:07:00] but then there's also sort of the side of us that puts a twist on things. And so if you think about that, like you started out in asset management, what's up?
[00:07:10] Stacy Havener: SSGA, Boston, you know, all the, all the vibes here at New England Vibes. Um. What was like, what's the twist? What did you add?
[00:07:23] John Bowman: Hmm. Well, it's, you know, I, I'm not trying to steal your jam. Yeah. But I, I've always been much better, you know, some people would call it right brain or bigger picture thinker, uh, or storyteller versus analytical, precision, technical mind.
[00:07:43] John Bowman: It's an absolute miracle I ever passed to CFA, because, you know, most people don't know this, so don't say this publicly on a podcast or anything, but I'm horrible at math. Horrible at math. So the idea that my first five, six years in this business that I had assignments. [00:08:00] On building models to analyze consumer fun companies on tech companies.
[00:08:04] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. Telecom companies is, it's like an atrocity that I was contributing to that I wanted to be a sports journalist. I still love writing fun. I mean,
[00:08:13] Stacy Havener: fun job right there. Right.
[00:08:15] John Bowman: Love it. You've been kind enough to quote one of my phrases. Well, I was waiting for the app for
[00:08:21] Stacy Havener: the right moment. Let's hear it.
[00:08:22] John Bowman: Exactly, exactly. So I love, I still love to write.
[00:08:26] Stacy Havener: Yeah. Um,
[00:08:27] John Bowman: so that is something that I've been able to maintain. So the twist to kind of use your words is that as, as I was able to. Ascend or find my way opportunistically into portfolio management, I could move away from the spreadsheet evaluation to client storytelling.
[00:08:44] John Bowman: So that's where my dad's lessons really came out. Like I realized from a very early age, like this is about them on the other side of the table. Yeah. Whether it was a family or an institution or a consultant intermediary, I, I realized like I was there for somebody else's purpose. Right? So these seeds were being planted [00:09:00] that have stayed with me now given my current role, very early age.
[00:09:04] John Bowman: Uh, and I loved being able to just engage on themes like what's happening in Europe when we were moving to the kind of 3G telecom world of telephonic, um, technology and, and how would that impact kind of communication demographics and business opportunity. And, and so I remember just being able to engage at a high level with that quite effectively.
[00:09:24] John Bowman: In client meetings and depending on the analysts, that were much better than me to kind of recommend these specific equity opportunities or company opportunities. So I was able to find my way pretty quickly into a, a role that suited me much better. So.
[00:09:41] Stacy Havener: Awesome. And you know, I think communication, it's sort of like the underrated, it's sort of like everyone goes, you know, like eye roll, especially in this biz it's like, oh, communication, whatever.
[00:09:56] Stacy Havener: But really, like, it's critical if you have the [00:10:00] best ideas, but you can't communicate them in a way that anybody understands. Also, half of our industry, like, this is not gonna work. It's not gonna work. Half whatever you're doing is not gonna work. Half
[00:10:11] John Bowman: half is kind.
[00:10:11] Stacy Havener: I know.
[00:10:12] John Bowman: Stacy, I, I, and look, I'm not judging anyone.
[00:10:15] John Bowman: No, I think it's a black guy. The industry is that the typical paths. Of education and development that most of us went through. So this could be undergraduate finance degree, this could be MBA. Yeah. And, and frankly, even looking in the mirror, CFA, Kaya, like we teach a very narrow set of competencies and skills and the idea of, of communication.
[00:10:36] John Bowman: The soft skills, empathy, yeah. Systems thinking, leadership development. These were foreign concepts and disciplines that I had to learn actually after I left these specific roles of investment management. These things were completely outside of my understanding. Even the great mentors I had in the business.
[00:10:56] John Bowman: Taught me things outside of that, they taught me some [00:11:00] amazing tools that I still utilize, but not these soft elements. Yeah, I had to leave the business before I was clear on this.
[00:11:06] Stacy Havener: Fascinating. And I wanna talk about what that looked like for you and take us to current, but I agree with you, it's not a knock because there's incredible talent in this industry.
[00:11:17] Stacy Havener: And so I think the trick is either you have to learn it yourself and find a way to do that as you've done. Or you need to find someone, a who, not how problem, someone else who can help you, who can be that unique ability teammate and communicate those ideas for you slash with you. And so how did you go from literally asset management, like sitting on the asset management side of the table and transition to more of a professional organization and association type of role?
[00:11:55] John Bowman: This is where we connect and intersect with maybe one of the most [00:12:00] career shaping experiences Yeah. Of my life. And that, you know, I know lots of people go through this, but, uh, this was involuntary leave, so I'm sitting just so you can imagine this time. Okay. And so all your listeners need to kind of go back in their time machine.
[00:12:15] John Bowman: So to make a long story short, we were at State Street Global Advisors. I was on a non-US equity strategy. Okay. Basically an EFA developed non-US strategy. Performance was great. And we also, sitting next to us had a very strong US large cap and US small cap now at State Street Global, still even today, like that is a massive index passive machine.
[00:12:37] John Bowman: They do amazing work. But like what is State Street Global known for? Is that the ETF and the passive business? Right. And custody of course on the bank. Um, the idea of an active capability I just think fell under the radar. And so there just wasn't a lot of tailwind and resources and support being given to us.
[00:12:55] John Bowman: It's just who they were. That's their identity, which is fine. So we very [00:13:00] covertly started shopping our business around town, okay. At other asset management shops. And one week after nine 11, in fact, we were scheduled to go the morning. Of nine 11. Oh, I got Tuesday. Yeah. Nine 11, 2001. We out of courtesy and just sheer emotional weight, decided to put that on hold.
[00:13:19] John Bowman: Anyway, the following Tuesday, seven of us resign and we literally and figuratively walk across the street to Mellon or the Boston Company. The
[00:13:29] Stacy Havener: Boston Company. Yes.
[00:13:31] John Bowman: The Boston Company. Yep. Right. We recruit a bunch of the analysts and we essentially just placed our growth platform. Boston Company was looking for a growth capability to compliment their value capability, and so I move into Boston Company, so that's 2001.
[00:13:47] John Bowman: Okay. And uh, if those of you that have been around a minute and have either none or gray hair like me, recall that post nine 11, it was a very scary time for a whole lot of reasons. Markets hiccuped and [00:14:00] puked for a few weeks, but then the fourth quarter of 2001 was actually gangbusters and the first half of 2002.
[00:14:09] John Bowman: Was enormously powerful. So I will tell you, I remember sitting at that Christmas party that first year after we had lifted out. Yeah. And we've got a new zip code and address and a new team and feeling quite proud of ourselves. And at 29 years old, I had kind of, I was a master of the universe in my own mind.
[00:14:25] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. Well then the spring of 2022 hit and. Germany and developed Europe started crashing. Eventually the, the plague headed over the Atlantic and the markets just got destroyed in, in 2002. So this was kind of the, the latter stages of.com world, right? So to your question, what Mellon had to do was make some significant cost cuts.
[00:14:48] John Bowman: And so they took our entire business, decided to shut down the legal entity, and 23 of us basically were told that, um, and they were kind and generous, but they said, look, we're, uh, we're consolidating all of this. [00:15:00] Uh, you guys are gonna have to move on. So this was involuntary. Yeah. Uh, Stacy. And so I never, and this was a big lesson for me for so many reasons.
[00:15:09] John Bowman: I was out of work for maybe 13 months at the time, which for a 29-year-old with, oh gosh. At the time, three young kids like scary stuff. Right now, my wife was getting very sick of me around the house, you know, searching for a job and feeling sorry for myself. But it was also a huge lesson in that at 29 I had a very myopic view of my identity.
[00:15:33] John Bowman: I was an international portfolio manager Yep. And I had some very good interviews and made it to second and third interviews where I thought I would've landed at shops. That would've been great. Next steps. Mm-hmm. But the reality was, is that I wasn't willing to kind of look outside of that very narrow lane I had labeled myself.
[00:15:51] John Bowman: Oh. Which is like the worst thing you could do if you're young and listening. Like, stay curious, stay open-minded. Like the world will give you a hand that [00:16:00] sometimes is completely different Yes. Than what you think. And, and, and often it's the best thing. Yes. While abrupt, while abrupt and uncomfortable in the moment, the best thing that could ever happen to you.
[00:16:09] John Bowman: And so after 13 months to get to your question, the last place. That I thought I would end up, which is a non-for-profit professional education body. CFA institute came a calling with a new role and the rest is history. So that was how I moved from kind of first portion of my career in practicing to jumping to the other side of the table and trying to serve and lead and support the industry.
[00:16:33] Stacy Havener: Wow. I have so many questions. Thank you for sharing this. This is a fabulous conversation as I knew it would be. So I wanna go back to something you said because it's really powerful. It hits me right in the heart, and I'm sure other people are having the same feeling, which is the story we tell ourselves.
[00:16:51] Stacy Havener: And oftentimes we sort of have this moment where we realize, is this actually my story or am I living someone else's story right now? [00:17:00] And that myopic view of, well, this is who I am and that it's defined by our JOB. Hmm. That is huge. And so if you can think back to that time, how did you make the leap? I mean, was it necessity?
[00:17:17] Stacy Havener: Like, I need a job and I've gotta get outta the house, my wife's gonna like poke my eyes out and so I'm just gonna take the leap? Or was there some reflection on either before or after? Maybe it's after that you look back and go, wait, this is where I'm supposed to be.
[00:17:32] John Bowman: Hmm. It took a while. I wish I could say that I was mature enough at 29 or even 51 now, frankly, Stacy, to, to see the bigger picture and the, the good that can come from surprises and turns that you didn't expect.
[00:17:47] John Bowman: No, I mean there were some close calls, like almost comical last minute losses if you will. Yeah. Of finals. Yeah, sure. Interviews and, you know, we were close to San Diego, we were close to Boston a couple times to stay, [00:18:00] and we were close to London, I mean, literally on the finish line. Wow. I mean, we needed the tush push.
[00:18:05] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. And it was over the line and we would've got the job and just these things would unravel for crazy reasons. Yeah. Um, and so as I looked back a couple years removed from that, yeah. I was like, there is a reason these things just hundred all fail. This is where I belong in Central Virginia. At this stage of my career, this is where my family needs to be raised.
[00:18:24] John Bowman: And I saw that I was being more rounded and we're gonna get back, I know to leadership development. Yeah. But I think now with. With some wisdom of age and trajectory. The formative disciplines that I was able to build and be taught and witness and have modeled for me outside of the crazy dog eat dog world of asset management, has made me, I think, a much better, I hope a much better leader in my domain now.
[00:18:51] John Bowman: And if I were to ever go back, it would make me, I think, unique.
[00:18:55] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm. And more
[00:18:56] John Bowman: rounded than most that stay vertical in that world.
[00:18:59] Stacy Havener: [00:19:00] The other thing I think is unique and special is you as a guide now, right? Because you know you're serving the industry that you were once a part of that right there. You understand what your clients, if you will now are going through.
[00:19:19] Stacy Havener: You understand how hard it is. You understand what it's like to build a business. You understand what it's like to run a portfolio, hire people, all of those things. You've done it. So it's not as if you are ivory tower looking down saying, here's how academically I think it should be done. You're like, no, no.
[00:19:38] Stacy Havener: I've been there. I've been in your shoes.
[00:19:42] John Bowman: Indeed. You know, I, my third week in the business out of school was the Asian crisis. And so I was watching completely naive and ignorant kind of my screen go red and everything collapsed. Mm-hmm. In places I hadn't even visited right at 22, [00:20:00] 3 years old at the time.
[00:20:01] John Bowman: And then as I said, as I told the story, five years later, I was watching this.com collapse in sectors and industries that I was meant to be responsible for and stewarding on behalf of the portfolio managers at the time. So I have been through the highs of kind of hubris, I'm the smartest Oh yeah.
[00:20:18] John Bowman: Analyst that's ever lived. And the nonsense that the business can feed you. Oh yeah. In that respect. And I've been on the other side of massive imposter syndrome. Yes. Do I have anything to bring to this conversation in those moments when you're in the valley and being able to just empathize, validate.
[00:20:34] John Bowman: Maybe balance folks that are on those highs or lows as they work their way through this business. I think if nothing else, it can help shape them into maybe the tendencies, the temptations, and what not to do
[00:20:46] Stacy Havener: in these moments. Yeah. Which is huge. Sometimes we need the what not to do more than we need the what to do.
[00:20:51] Stacy Havener: Right. I mean, that's, that's big. And so, but you're gonna do another switch here in your career. 'cause you're gonna go from long only to alts. So how'd that [00:21:00] happen?
[00:21:01] John Bowman: Yes, indeed. So I'm 13 ish years into my CFA time. I mean, who would've thought given the story I just told you about? Crazy. Yeah. Why is this happening?
[00:21:11] John Bowman: Um, I'm leaving my track. This is not who I am. So all those things, uh, eventually faded and I was having a blast. We spent a few years in London towards the latter portion of that time at CFA, I had kind of sat in almost every seat at CFA Institute. Love my time. But it was clear for the forthcoming and approaching CEO switch, uh, and next search that I was not gonna be considered.
[00:21:35] John Bowman: Okay. And that was communicated to me from the board, which is fine, but I, I didn't wanna wait. Mm-hmm. I felt I was getting close, if not ready to contribute and make my mark on an organization. So Bill Kelly, who is the predecessor to me, who I think you know, yes. Um, we had gotten fairly. Close, uh, friends and professionally, I mean, you share the same stages.
[00:21:55] John Bowman: C, f, A and Kaya are of course, almost always on the same size of the battlefield, and we've [00:22:00] got very similar missions and we're in this together on the right side of the, on the ledger. Um, so we had gotten to know each other pretty well, and it was in April of 21 that Bill gave me a call and oddly he had been, uh, or ironically maybe is a better choice of words.
[00:22:15] John Bowman: He had been a reference for me and a huge mentor in kind of helping me prep for a couple interviews and tracks that I was involved with at the time. And a couple months later, I get this call from him that I just described, and he said, actually, what do you think about. Joining me. What if we do this together?
[00:22:32] John Bowman: I could really use some help. And it came outta left field. And I've told I've, I've played this back to him now a few years, removed several times and say, I gotta think about that. And so a couple months later in July I joined. And I think it was really, look, bill is a, is an extremely persuasive and engaging guy.
[00:22:50] John Bowman: So it's hard to say no to him. It's hard not to follow Bill. But he, he said, I think what I feel now, very articulately, which was, look, the tide is [00:23:00] going one way. The future's headed in one direction. Right? If you look on the horizon, this is a business that's looking across multiple asset classes.
[00:23:09] John Bowman: Portfolios are becoming more complicated, more complex, more diversified. Uh, this is where you wanna be because I think the future is kind of ours. And I, and he is absolutely right. And I, I would double down on that. Yeah. Now, six years removed from me joining that, it, it is completely validated. I feel this is the place to be even more than.
[00:23:28] John Bowman: I did six years ago. So that was the shift. And there's no doubt having grown up in a long, only meaning professionally world, that I had a learning curve on how to think through private capital and, and hedge funds and some of these very opaque strategies. But I'm, I'm having a blast 'cause I'm learning something every single day.
[00:23:47] Stacy Havener: I love that story. And Bill is such an amazing person. Forget like his professional career, which is also amazing, but just as a human and it reminds me of something I say all the time. Maybe I just like wanna [00:24:00] say this, every podcast, I don't know, which is people do business with people. And I think that's true when we're selling, I'm using air quotes, but I also think it's true when we're taking our next job or thinking about our career.
[00:24:15] Stacy Havener: And that story was such an honest moment. An example of this, because you knew him for a long time. You trusted him, he was a friend, he came to you, and the way that it hit for you, I can imagine was different than if had just been some person you didn't know who called you up and said, Hey, there's an association that's like CFA, but it's for alternative investment managers.
[00:24:39] Stacy Havener: Do you wanna join? You probably have been like, no, that's not what I do.
[00:24:43] John Bowman: Yeah, but
[00:24:44] Stacy Havener: this was again, sort of the universe. Putting things in front of you and luck for skill. I mean, a little of both, but you at least had the skill to recognize an opportunity [00:25:00] because now where are we today?
[00:25:03] John Bowman: Well, thankfully six months in, uh, to my CEO stint.
[00:25:07] John Bowman: So yeah. Bill was, um,
[00:25:09] Stacy Havener: congratulations, bill
[00:25:10] John Bowman: Wa and, and Bill told me this in that April 21 call. Yeah. This was not the primary reason I joined, but as part of the overall pitch, it was like, look, I, it's not tomorrow. It's not even in a couple years, but eventually I need a option for an internal succession plan.
[00:25:26] John Bowman: Yeah. The board obviously will make that decision. But, uh, so given what I told you about my view of where I thought I was at cf, a institute that was appealing as part of the larger calculus mm-hmm. Of my trajectory there. And there's another kind of chapter to my makeup story Yeah. That, that played a role here too, is that.
[00:25:46] John Bowman: The most fulfilled Stacy I've ever been in my career is when I'm building something. Ah. So when we left State Street, when I described that, yeah. Kind of lift out. When we walked across the street, we were building a thoroughbred [00:26:00] capability. Yes. In a larger stable of thoroughbreds, but we were building boutique Melon growth advisors, a brand new capability boutique in a larger organization.
[00:26:08] John Bowman: It was very much, at least initially on paper, the best of both worlds. Mm-hmm. You had these deep pockets, you had a platform, a distribution, you had a brand, but you were able to do it in an entrepreneurial spirit. Yeah. With a small team. That suits me well. When I was sent to Lenn for CFA Institute, it was similar.
[00:26:24] John Bowman: It was sent there to create a new product and I had my own team and my own budget and I was reporting on, on kind of a startup capability. Mm-hmm. Right When I was at more going Concern Montross and that was maybe State Street, a portion of my time at CFA. It doesn't make it wrong. No. Some love that. I just get a little bit bored.
[00:26:45] John Bowman: Yep. And so what Kaya also offered beyond everything that Bill articulated that I mentioned. Was this ability still at a very early stage of the lifecycle to come in on the ground floor and build systems and capability and maturity [00:27:00] and culture that allowed us to really accelerate up that curve and momentum on not only the numbers, but much more importantly credibility and brand and influence and impact.
[00:27:10] John Bowman: And you know, people tell me all the time when I tell them we've only got 50 people globally, or I tell them our total budget and they're like, how do you possibly do this? Yeah. You guys, you know, the old adage of you punch way above your weight. I was just gonna say it. There's nothing that's more fulfilling when I hear variations of that.
[00:27:27] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. And look, I know we're handicapped. I wish we had deeper pockets. We have to say no to more things than we'd say yes to. But I think people see that we're able to create ripples and echo for our size. That many people, um, well at least I'm very proud, should be that many people are surprised to hear.
[00:27:45] Stacy Havener: I bet there are a lot of people listening who just heard those stats and went, wait, what? You have 50 people. And you know, I love what you said about it's not right or wrong and I think this is really important for people to hear. Nothing is right or wrong [00:28:00] as it relates to your career or you or your story.
[00:28:04] Stacy Havener: There is no right story. There is no wrong story. It's what is right for you. And it's about differences, not who's better or what's better. And so having that knowledge and self-awareness to say, I like to build things, that's massive. And you know the way you even told this story. Now, not only do you have a voice that sometimes I'm like, I could hear you announcing a game like the sports journalist in you is so there in the way you're telling the stories.
[00:28:36] Stacy Havener: It's been fantastic, but also just in. The journey for yourself because now, I mean, think about the 25 to 29-year-old you that was like, I'm a fund manager. That's what I am. This
[00:28:53] John Bowman: is what I am,
[00:28:54] Stacy Havener: and now you're a CEO. Excuse me. That's a [00:29:00] massive journey to go on as a person. Nevermind, as a quote professional.
[00:29:05] Stacy Havener: Like you should be so proud on so many levels, John.
[00:29:09] John Bowman: Well, like I've alluded to, and you have too, you know, this is a path where you discover and you experience and you're surprised along the way. And the large majority of it is people that have, like I've mentioned with Bill and other mentors. People that give you opportunities, people that offer responsibilities before you're ready.
[00:29:27] John Bowman: It's something I've taken as a leader too, is trial by fire. And I was, I was thrown into, because as I said, I was, I entered the market in a very bullish, frothy time. I took on way more responsibility than anybody had any business giving me. And so I learned a lot probably too quickly, uh, about both my strengths and my weaknesses.
[00:29:48] John Bowman: But I would just reiterate, like, it takes a village to create a career. And I've had the benefit of just lots of people and organizations giving me opportunities and teaching me. So I, I am very proud, but I also am [00:30:00] thankful more than
[00:30:00] Stacy Havener: anything. Yes.
[00:30:01] John Bowman: And just one last piece. Yeah. Kind of tying this thread to the, the ground floor versus the going concern.
[00:30:06] John Bowman: Yeah. Kind of my makeup. One of the things my dad used to always say in his leadership, kind of DNA, was surround yourself with people that are smarter than you. Mm-hmm. And they'll always make you look good. And I think he's absolutely right. I share that view. In some ways you wanna make yourself obsolete.
[00:30:23] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. As a leader. Yes. When you're no longer needed there, you should not feel bad. Mm-hmm. You should not hide, you should not coast and be a cost center. You should move on. Mm. And you should consider that a success. And so again, I realize I'm built slightly differently than others. But the point was, in some of those other bigger firms, I felt like I had subordinates and team members that had risen to the degree that like I wasn't needed anymore.
[00:30:50] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. And so when I'm building something, when it gets to that point mm-hmm. That point where the portion of the curve and the [00:31:00] formation and the inspiration. The new systems and processes mm-hmm. That need to be put in place. Once that is established and digested and understood and shared and properly communicated, as you said earlier, that's when I feel like I have been at my best.
[00:31:14] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. And there's others that are way better at me operating and executing. Mm. And I, that took a long time to admit, but that has been an awakening for me surrounding myself with not only smart people to take my dad's advice, but also the right complimentary people. Yeah. So they can hide some of those weaknesses.
[00:31:32] John Bowman: And I don't get lost in that next stage.
[00:31:35] Stacy Havener: It's a great point. 'cause there's this like, I don't know what this is a saying or something, but it's like, you know, you make it up as an entrepreneurial mindset. You make it up, you make it real. Meaning someone pays you for whatever the thing is that you made up.
[00:31:48] Stacy Havener: You make it repeat, which is the systematization that you talked about. And then you make it scale. And I think builders are good at different parts of that. [00:32:00] Right. Entrepreneurs are talented at different parts of that spectrum and typically not the scaling part. And yeah, I relate to this very much and I, I've been thinking a lot about this, and this ties to just some of the incredible research that you and your team have done.
[00:32:16] Stacy Havener: Someone asked me to contribute to a piece piece about why, why do funds fail, and why do boutiques fail? Because that's a huge part of this biz is, you know, the business risk or whatever risk it is, why do they fail? And I, I haven't yet put pen to paper, so this is like literally me thinking out loud with you here.
[00:32:38] Stacy Havener: But I think in my experience, it's actually what you described, meaning it's the business parts that sort of create the failure more so than the investment parts. It's a really powerful reminder that when you're building anything, it's [00:33:00] not just the craft, it's not just the front stage even. It's all the stuff that goes into keeping the lights on and running the place and all of the business things that if it's not your skillset, you need to find someone who can do it, or in my opinion, the odds of your business succeeding go way down.
[00:33:23] John Bowman: Indeed, and this is where you've quoted our research from a few years ago. Yeah. Where I kind of channeled Peter Drucker's famous quote, culture eats strategy for breakfast in the context of the LPGP relationship that you're mm-hmm. Talking through, which is culture eats the sharp ratio for breakfast and we are, you talk about myopic, to use a word.
[00:33:42] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. We've been throwing around in my own career journey LPs and even more so. Reciprocating gps tend to focus explicitly in the pitch and in the process, and even in the ongoing existing client relationship update [00:34:00] on the performance. Yeah. And how they've done against a benchmark. And look, I realize this stuff is important, but frankly that's table stakes.
[00:34:07] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. Like you shouldn't even have a discussion if the performance is not good, but what makes for a long-term partnership. Yeah. And you think about like Swenson's at Yale who modeled this better than anybody, forget his brilliance and how early he was. Yep. On venture and privates and some of the ways that he thought about diversification in pioneering portfolio management.
[00:34:26] John Bowman: What made David, I think more special than anything else was his understanding that this was a long-term relationship between people. Mm-hmm. The moment you lose that, and this becomes about numbers and benchmarks and either black versus red one, three and five year performance numbers, you have lost sight.
[00:34:45] John Bowman: Yep. You have to remember, going back to where I started in my childhood, the LP is sharing, perhaps even delegating, and I don't mean in a legal sense. No, I love it. But you're delegating fiduciary responsibility. Yes. Who are you going to battle with to care for the clients [00:35:00] and their retirement and these beneficiaries future.
[00:35:03] John Bowman: Right. If you're not managing that internally, then you are counting on, depending on and assuming that these other individuals share your values, the behaviors, the responses to adversity, the way you would on behalf of these individuals, and if that's outta step, if the incentives aren't aligned, if there's not very open and clear communication at the peaks and the to valleys.
[00:35:27] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. Then that is ultimately going to end poorly. And it was purely a transactional
[00:35:34] Stacy Havener: That's right.
[00:35:34] John Bowman: Relationship. And so I think this is underappreciated by most, not some, some do it really well. Mm-hmm. But I think way too many people, uh, the old adage of, you know, buying high and selling low is probably most rampant in manager selection.
[00:35:51] John Bowman: Yeah. For this reason.
[00:35:52] Stacy Havener: A hundred percent agree. And it's also the business components, it's the communication, it's the [00:36:00] relationships, and it's the fact that every business, now, if you're a big, it's less relevant 'cause the business is established and everything's fine. But if you're anywhere on the spectrum of boutique or founder led, even if you have, you know, double digit billions, 25 billion, et cetera, like it's still a business and people still wanna know where are you going?
[00:36:22] Stacy Havener: You know, if you are a boutique, I need to understand, are you gonna be here? Like, are you gonna survive these first five years if you're an emerging manager? Right? If you're in that middle group, like, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna sell? Because I don't really want that. Right? And so there are all these elements, elephants in the room, things that we don't think the LP cares about that actually are really important to that partnership.
[00:36:51] Stacy Havener: And with that in mind, talk about Kaya in that way because you are, you know, you're a nonprofit and you're serving [00:37:00] your members, but like, you also have to set strategy and vision as the CEO, as the leader. Like what is that vision for Kaya?
[00:37:09] John Bowman: Yeah. Well obviously I've been spending a lot of time thinking about that.
[00:37:12] John Bowman: Yeah. Both in the boardroom with now the board that I sit on as the CEO, but also out in the wild Yeah. With, uh, with all the stakeholders around the world. So let me first say that when I approached this while I was an internal hire, so to some extent I. A huge advantage. Mm. I had huge institutional knowledge.
[00:37:31] John Bowman: After six years there, there was nothing broken. Bill was a good leader. Things were going well, both financially and in any other dimension. The other side of that coin, however, Stacy, is that you can get into tunnel vision and groupthink. Mm. And you can miss disruptive thinking because you're too close to it.
[00:37:51] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. So it was very important to me to stay disciplined despite having intuition. And obviously the board heard me talk about what my vision, mm-hmm. [00:38:00] Before any of this was for what I would do with KAA and some of the changes I might make. So it's not to suggest that I didn't have opinions, but I wanted to manage my own impatience and desire to move quickly to go through what you might call a listening tour.
[00:38:15] John Bowman: Ooh. So through the course of this year, and we're halfway exactly halfway through this, I've had what I'm calling C-suite round tables around the world. So these are 15. C-suite level folks from asset managers, asset owners, service providers, thought leaders. We get around the table and we talk about the future of the industry.
[00:38:36] John Bowman: I'm not asking them to tell me what to do at Kaya or how we should adjust the Kaya curriculum or launch which product. Like that's our job to figure out, yeah, we're interpreting, we're connecting dots. I'm facilitating, and the brilliance and the wisdom and the nuggets of feedback. Especially as you accumulate them all.
[00:38:57] John Bowman: Oh, yeah. Start to see threads. Mm-hmm. That flow through [00:39:00] LA and Toronto and Singapore, and Doha and Hong Kong. Right. Suddenly there are themes that are emerging and there's. Obvious ways that Kaya needs or it needs to contribute, at least to approaching solving for and accelerating some of these elements.
[00:39:18] John Bowman: So that was one the board obviously is very interested in that they've been holding my hand and, and vice versa through this whole process. The short answer is though, so I'm trying to be disciplined and not move too quickly. However, there's a couple things that are critically important, and you mentioned one a little while ago, which is CAA needs scale.
[00:39:37] John Bowman: Mm. And and the reason for that is sometimes counterintuitive, and I think this is where our industry, when you think, Stacy, about educational organizations or professional bodies that offer credentials, designations, and I had this wrong view in my previous role, is that they're typically seen as widget businesses, right?
[00:39:58] John Bowman: You look under the hood, what's the [00:40:00] makeup and the composition of said body of knowledge or curriculum and the client. Determines or the, the customer determines, is that the right educational Oh my goodness. Offering or product for me. Yep. And they say yes or no, and they compare it. It's almost like they're walking through some used car lot.
[00:40:16] John Bowman: Wow. And they're kicking this tire or this one. They're looking under the hood of this one. What's the upgrade package for this one? Uhhuh. And I will tell you that is the complete wrong way. 99% of people consider doing kaya. Typically, they ask emotive intangible things like, what will this do for my career?
[00:40:34] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. Will it give me a personal brand that's different? Who am I gonna be hanging out with? Who am I gonna be rubbing shoulders with? What cocktail parties, figuratively speaking, am I suddenly gonna be invited to? Right. And so it is about community. Ooh. Which seems obvious we're a member organization, but here's the kind of mic drop, perhaps counterintuitive.
[00:40:55] John Bowman: Yeah. Um, insight that I've had. We are actually, I [00:41:00] think a network economy business, like an email organization or a social media business. Meaning the more people, each marginal person that comes into the community, the value of said community rises. It's the opposite of what we learned in economics 1 0 1.
[00:41:16] John Bowman: So the value gets bigger as it grows. And so with this epiphany and insight in mind, we need to scale. Yeah. 'cause as we scale, more people want in. It's a virtuous cycle. It's a flywheel. Right. So we are looking at ways and proximities and geographies where we can invest boldly and courageously where we have high convict.
[00:41:38] John Bowman: About which markets need help and opportunity and development and education and invest in resources and people to accelerate that flywheel to get scale. And we're looking at kind of the other dimension. If you look at a different facet of the business, we're looking at different, I, I don't really like to use this word, it sounds overly commercial, but different products.
[00:41:58] John Bowman: Different mm-hmm. Courses. Yeah. [00:42:00] Different tools So that when these markets are trying to be much more explicitly developed, that we have the right tool belt that is gonna serve them well so that they engage with us. So that's, I think, the, the main summary at the high level. Now, there's a lot of operating tactics under that, but the main thing is, is that we need to scale this and we need to do it in a very approachable and understandable and clear way that has tactics and success outcomes so that ultimately our membership feels even more.
[00:42:35] John Bowman: Proud and fulfilled by being part of this tribe.
[00:42:39] Stacy Havener: Yes. That is
[00:42:41] John Bowman: the coolest place to be.
[00:42:42] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:42:43] John Bowman: Our new purpose is we wanna build, it's not, uh, purposes. If you typically look at professional designations, I'll end with this professional designations. We'll have like these wooden statements like you wanna be an educational company that really leads the business or is the highest standard or [00:43:00] cares for clients and all that is true.
[00:43:02] John Bowman: Like, don't get me wrong, our new purpose, our new mission Yeah. You might say is about we wanna build the most energized community of invest professionals around the world.
[00:43:10] Stacy Havener: Bingo.
[00:43:11] John Bowman: Yes.
[00:43:11] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:43:12] John Bowman: The means by which we do that is education. Yeah. And events and continuing ed. Absolutely. That will always be our secret sauce and our primary tool.
[00:43:21] John Bowman: But what are we trying to do? Actually feed the beast of this community. So people are pumped up when they leave our gatherings or whatever the case might be. Yes. They go back to the desk and they say, I am part of the coolest tribe ever.
[00:43:36] Stacy Havener: That is mic drop right there. We're making Kaya extra. Cool. That is, I mean, it's always been, but I think what you're saying is so powerful.
[00:43:46] Stacy Havener: I'm looking at my bookshelf because up there somewhere is. Seth Godin's book, tribe or Tribes. Have you read that?
[00:43:55] John Bowman: Yes.
[00:43:55] Stacy Havener: Okay. Yes. So it's like people like us do things like this. People like us [00:44:00] say things like this, right? And so you are, the energizing word to me is so great. Also, because I feel like in our industry, the typical gatherings are kind of boring.
[00:44:13] Stacy Havener: Let's be honest. It's a bunch of blue suits. Well, they don't pass out business cards anymore, I guess. But whatever the new equivalent of that is, it's just like, it's so blah. It's nobody comes back from that and says, wow, that was awesome.
[00:44:27] John Bowman: Here's the other kicker, the fortunate reality that burdens me, however.
[00:44:33] John Bowman: Yeah. Is that, so the business model of membership of a professional designation is somewhat captive. Right. If you earn your Kaya and you want to use those four letters, which of course after all that hard work Yeah. Blood, sweat, and tears, family sacrifice. You better believe that I want to use those four letters on my business card or equivalent.
[00:44:54] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. After I've earned it, like I'm proud of it. Yeah. But if they don't write that check to be a member, they [00:45:00] can't use it. Mm-hmm. And what burdens me, Stacy, is if the only reason we're getting a check in the mail, figuratively speaking, nobody writes checks anymore, but we're getting a check in the mail because they wanna maintain those four letters, if that's all we are.
[00:45:14] John Bowman: Yeah. Is kind of a transactional gate or a toll booth to use four letters. Like we have failed. Yeah. Like, I want people, the, the marketing people wouldn't let me use. Cool. So we chose energize.
[00:45:24] Stacy Havener: Okay. I think it's fine, but
[00:45:25] John Bowman: I, I want people to be so pumped up and I realize I sound Pollyanna in this, but that's fine.
[00:45:29] John Bowman: I, this is gonna be all about members and the community. I want people to be so pumped up about writing that check every year because the value they get personally, professionally, relationally is so fulfilling that it's, like I said, it's the most valuable group of individuals that they can hang out with.
[00:45:49] John Bowman: Yeah. So that's what we're trying to do. I,
[00:45:52] Stacy Havener: that is mic drop. Okay. So a couple things. One, awesome. Like, boy does the industry need this. [00:46:00] It's so interesting because in some ways, like when you were talking about that flywheel, the network effect that happens, like, you know, hearkening back to Facebook and how Facebook got more valuable, the more people who joined that is so incredibly powerful and I'm here for that.
[00:46:18] Stacy Havener: That is real. And I think the more you continue to challenge yourselves as a group to say, what do people actually want? What do they actually care about? And sometimes we tell ourselves a story about what we think they should want. All of this very educational training about how to serve the client better.
[00:46:42] Stacy Havener: But the reality is sometimes people wanna like, I wanna make my career the best I can. Like it becomes like about them as individuals. Yeah. And if we aren't brave enough to acknowledge that. I wanna like go hang out with people that are fun to be [00:47:00] with. Like, we're people after all. So if we only operate in the esoteric intellectual level, we're missing a really big part of what makes a community special.
[00:47:11] John Bowman: You have hit that on the head and I, I wholeheartedly sign
[00:47:15] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:47:16] John Bowman: With you on that. I look, I think it's terribly to use a phrase you used earlier, ivory tower and full of hubris to say, let's teach the industry what they need to know. That is an attitude and at least a reputation, even if it's not an attitude that a lot of us professional bodies have across the industry.
[00:47:35] John Bowman: Yep. Right. And we need to at least kaya's going to break that. Yes. 'cause we're gonna be authentic. We're gonna be great listeners. We fully understand And look, I was young once, as we talked about at length, let's be honest, about why people initially at 22 would take Kaya. I mean, are you kidding me? It's not because I want to be part of something special that cares for the virtuous professionalism of this broader commune that [00:48:00]we call the investment profession.
[00:48:02] John Bowman: I hope they adopt that and through time and osmosis and modeling that, that becomes their calling card. And eventually in their forties and fifties, they say, that's why I'm part of this group. Yeah. But let's be honest, at first they wanna raise, yes, they want a promotion, they want a new job, and let's just acknowledge that that's normal and okay.
[00:48:23] John Bowman: So if I can engage in a very human, authentic way, welcoming them into this warm, vibrant, energized, cool community, that both gives them selfishly an opportunity to really advance and open up new doors and intellectually engage with people they never would have met before. And at the same time, start through osmosis and relational kind of convening, starts to teach them about the ultimate purpose of the industry in the profession, which is what Kai is all about.
[00:48:58] John Bowman: I think that's a win-win. I do too. [00:49:00] And the moment we get into one or the other, we either go way too commercial. Mm-hmm. Or we go way too esoteric and we become just, you know, the nanny pointing fingers and telling people how to do their job, which is neither of those extremes is a good place.
[00:49:15] Stacy Havener: I mean, I have so many ideas and thought this is so exciting and energizing.
[00:49:22] Stacy Havener: So mission accomplished. We don't have enough time. We're gonna have to do the reunion tour 'cause I just have so many things like questions I wanna ask about this. But before we move on, I wanna point to something you're doing so that our listeners can get out. If you don't have your pen, now's the time, the listening tour.
[00:49:40] Stacy Havener: Okay. Can everybody listening to this podcast? Yes. I'm glad you asked. Please do this and think about it. John is the CEO of Kaya, and you know what he's doing? He's getting his butt on a plane and he's flying around to talk with their stakeholders, their members, their clients in [00:50:00] person. Okay? I want everyone to hear this.
[00:50:03] Stacy Havener: He didn't send someone, he didn't set up a freaking zoom because something's lost when we do that. So the fact not only that you're doing this, John, that you're doing the listening tour, the fact that it's you, the fact that you're in person, the fact that you are putting in this hard work to ask questions and learn and understand.
[00:50:22] Stacy Havener: That is something our industry is not good at. We sit in that ivory tower and we come up with what we think people should want. We create it and then we sell it to them and it's backwards.
[00:50:36] John Bowman: Yeah. And speaking of serving, we also asked our 14,000 members what they most wanted in us. To my point on the primacy of our family, like I will always be about serving our family, the members first.
[00:50:48] John Bowman: So we've had three different kind of avenues to build this mosaic of what's best. But to your question, I want everyone to be able to participate in this tour, in this [00:51:00] experience, in this journey. So we've built a microsite, and you can find it on kaya.org, but we've built a microsite that basically draws you in, invites you in to be part of this kinetic, very living organic journey and so on.
[00:51:14] John Bowman: There is kind of an Indiana Jones map where you can hover over. Where we're having these uhhuh and we, we've got a summary of what we've learned. We've got the results of the member survey. We've got some other thoughts and highlights of the themes that are starting to emerge, and this is gonna culminate in September on the stage at our big event called Alt 2K.
[00:51:35] John Bowman: Where I'll be solidifying what I'm calling Vision 2035. So our next decades strategy, and that's all gonna be a function of certainly us interpreting, but mostly all these stakeholders and professionals and our constituents speaking in to how Kaya can be the most optimal service provider and guide and Sherpa out there.
[00:51:59] John Bowman: And I'm quite [00:52:00] excited about what the future holds.
[00:52:01] Stacy Havener: Oh my gosh, so am I. So I want people to participate with you on the sort of, it's a round table, but on the other side as stakeholders, as members, as part of this community. And I also want them to take this playbook and run it back, Jack, for yourselves and your businesses.
[00:52:20] Stacy Havener: This is huge. You wanna show up for people, then you gotta give them what they want, not what you think they should want. Massive difference between those two things.
[00:52:33] John Bowman: I will say too, Stacy, that that's such a good point because what I find, look some of the people in this room, by sheer nature of my role and sometimes even my title will show up.
[00:52:44] John Bowman: You know, they're C-I-O-C-E-O-C-O-O of huge firms. Like I'm massively flattered that they show up. That's great. Some of which I know. I think honestly the majority initially, if I don't know them, are doing this out of the goodness of their heart. Yeah. A bit of a favor. [00:53:00] I will say the engagement and the dynamism of these discussions, given who's on their left and their right, and across from the table to a person, everyone, and this is not a function of me 'cause I just need to wind them up and then they go, yeah.
[00:53:14] John Bowman: Every one of these 15 people is used to talking the whole time. Right. Yeah. These are own the room folks. So the moment I wind them up and they go, and everyone to a person has come out and said, that was one of the best uses of my time, love that. I don't get to just sit back with my peers and talk about five, 10 years from now.
[00:53:31] John Bowman: Very often, I'm, I'm massively distracted in the day-to-day noise. And so there is multiple benefits. And if I'm helping them, like that's a win in itself. Yes, they're giving me great substance and content and that's gonna affect the way that we serve them in return. But if I can help them in their job, then that's, that's part of why Kai exists too.
[00:53:49] John Bowman: So this has been a win across dimensions that I didn't even initially realize.
[00:53:53] Stacy Havener: Yes. And I think also, go back to put your asset management hat on for a second. How [00:54:00] reluctant are we to have our clients talk to each other? What the heck is that? Yeah. It's like what do we think they're gonna do collude and everyone's gonna like mass, sell us like redemptions.
[00:54:11] Stacy Havener: Like go. I mean, it's actually a little bit crazy when really what you're saying is people also want to connect with peers and they
[00:54:22] John Bowman: do.
[00:54:22] Stacy Havener: And there's so much to learn from what you're doing, John. And I think to me, that's one of the definitions of authentic leadership. It's not what we say, it's what we do.
[00:54:33] Stacy Havener: Right? It's talking the talk. Sure. But it's walking the walk or in your case, running the run. And you are doing it brilliantly, my friend. I have some quick questions to end with, but we are definitely doing a reunion. Maybe after September you can come back and tell us. More. Well, we're gonna do
[00:54:53] John Bowman: a, uh, I think as we already established, yeah.
[00:54:55] John Bowman: We're gonna do an ERAS tour on the beach and then on Yeah. And then, then for a run. That's right.
[00:54:59] Stacy Havener: Yeah. [00:55:00] Obvious it's happening. Okay. So here are my questions. Okay. Are you ready?
[00:55:05] John Bowman: I think so. Fast
[00:55:05] Stacy Havener: fire ish, but not bad.
[00:55:07] John Bowman: Yeah.
[00:55:08] Stacy Havener: Okay. What book inspires you? It does not have to be a business book. It can, but it doesn't have to be.
[00:55:15] John Bowman: Hmm. Well the first thing that came to mind is a business book. So if, forgive me. Yeah, that's fine if this is borings. But every direct hire that I have hired in the last 12, I would say years approximately, the first thing they receive in the mail is The Advantage by Patrick Lencioni. I'm a big Lencioni fan.
[00:55:34] John Bowman: That is awesome. But the Advantage is a bit of an anthology of all of his best work. Okay. And it probably encapsulates, it has become an encapsulation of probably. The closest representation of my style as anything. And so that is always a huge foundational read for any new executive team member, uh, at Kaya, at CFA.
[00:55:53] John Bowman: It was, and I'm massively, I love this. Massively thankful for their practice.
[00:55:58] Stacy Havener: Have you read [00:56:00] Working Genius?
[00:56:01] John Bowman: No, but I've heard good things about that.
[00:56:03] Stacy Havener: Yeah. So we were just talking about working Genius literally yesterday, which is another Patrick Lencioni book and, and Framework. Recommend that one to you, my friend.
[00:56:13] Stacy Havener: Very interesting. Yeah. I'm a huge fan of his as well, and what his organization does.
[00:56:19] John Bowman: I like all Lencioni's stuff, just like I like all Nicholas Sparks sappy stuff.
[00:56:25] Stacy Havener: Is this true?
[00:56:26] John Bowman: Oh my goodness. I'm a are you serious? Or now I'm like a ro, I'm a romance mush. Yeah. So I, I guess you could throw any Nicholas Spark, any Nicholas Spark, sparks speech reads,
[00:56:35] Stacy Havener: you know, listen,
[00:56:35] John Bowman: or like at 35,000 feet, if there's a Nicholas Sparks movie happening, I'm usually an audible mess.
[00:56:42] Stacy Havener: Oh yeah. Oh, there, oh, I've been, I've been there. Like, why do we do that to ourselves? And then you're like sobbing somehow. I know.
[00:56:48] John Bowman: Somehow when you're lower, you know, upper atmosphere, things are just hit harder.
[00:56:54] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I think that's it. It's like a physical thing. We can't help it. It's just, just tears are falling.
[00:56:59] Stacy Havener: I falling my wife, have I told
[00:56:59] John Bowman: you how much [00:57:00] I love you? And she's like, yes. Like an hour ago. What are you watching?
[00:57:04] Stacy Havener: Oh my gosh. Okay. Well we're gonna go from books to places now. So what place inspires you? What's your happy place?
[00:57:13] John Bowman: Ooh. Like city or like,
[00:57:15] Stacy Havener: I don't know. You get to design this open friend.
[00:57:17] Stacy Havener: You're leaving friend open mind. Yeah.
[00:57:19] John Bowman: Well, let me, I'm gonna answer this two ways. Okay. Uh, so I'm gonna cheat. That's fine. You can, I'm gonna hedge,
[00:57:23] Stacy Havener: you can hedge your best as some of our members would. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:57:26] John Bowman: So the most interesting place. I've ever visited. The city that I most enjoy that has the most character is Istanbul.
[00:57:35] John Bowman: Amazing food, unbelievable history, center of human civilization. Right. From ancient times. Wow. So I, I love Istanbul. So, and I, I love a lot of cities. I love to travel. But that top of the list as far as, I love this places. Okay. I like to go as far as like the happy place. Yeah. If, if that's kind of the tangent of the question.
[00:57:54] John Bowman: Like, so we moved to Salt Lake as I think you know mm-hmm. About four years ago. And [00:58:00] I'm on the road a lot as we've talked about. And there's something very special and serene and resetting about my canyon. 'cause we live up kind of in the mountains and I, I do a lot of run trail runs up there. It's a lot of.
[00:58:13] John Bowman: Podcasts, you know, billion dollar backstory, listening back story podcast. Of
[00:58:17] Stacy Havener: course, yeah. Right. Yeah.
[00:58:18] John Bowman: Yeah. And it's uh, kind of a horseshoe canyon and I spend a lot of time up there thinking, resetting. It's just my place.
[00:58:25] Stacy Havener: I love this. And also I think whether it's mountains or whether it's sea level, there is something powerful about having a physical view, like being able to see far, this is my very unscientific, anecdotal research that No, I love it.
[00:58:45] Stacy Havener: It somehow helps you think bigger, differently, bigger, more strategic. Like, if you have a, a building in your face, it's kind of hard to think about. Like, I mean,
[00:58:54] John Bowman: you're walking through Manhattan. Yeah. It's hard to think about anything else but 10 year vision, not getting hit by a taxi. [00:59:00] Totally.
[00:59:00] Stacy Havener: Alright, now a fun one.
[00:59:02] Stacy Havener: I hope it's fun. Okay, so. Let's pretend you're giving this talk about this vision, which you're kind of doing in September. Maybe this is gonna be the setup here. I don't know. You're about to take the stage, but you need a walkout anthem.
[00:59:18] John Bowman: Ooh,
[00:59:18] Stacy Havener: what's it gonna be?
[00:59:20] John Bowman: I don't even need to pause. This has been my walkout song for 30 years.
[00:59:25] John Bowman: The best song written of all time. Don't Stop Believing By Journey.
[00:59:31] Stacy Havener: Oh, journey. Journey has never been mentioned on this podcast in three years. Oh, there you go. What a great tall. Well, you've not had the right
[00:59:39] John Bowman: guest yet. You know, it's one of those songs that, yeah, you see 20 year olds singing every word, and of course, old folks like me.
[00:59:48] John Bowman: Yep. Singing every word and everything in between. There's not many songs that connect generations like. Good old journey did. Yeah. Good old
[00:59:55] Stacy Havener: journey. That is amazing. I'm listening to that after that album actually is [01:00:00]fantastic. Okay. What profession, other than your own, would you like to attempt?
[01:00:06] John Bowman: Ooh, I've talked about my final chapter, um, being in the pastorate.
[01:00:12] John Bowman: So we're very involved at church. A lot of things you've probably picked up on. You know, my leadership style is relational. Mm-hmm. Leadership style is mentor oriented, and there's nothing I love more than helping people, guiding people, providing wisdom. Usually it's what not to do as I've talked about earlier, but being able to translate that into something even more meaningful than That's great.
[01:00:33] John Bowman: Than investment management would be a, a good finish.
[01:00:36] Stacy Havener: Oh, I love this. Okay. Flip side, what profession would you not like to do?
[01:00:41] John Bowman: Ooh, that's a hard one.
[01:00:41] Stacy Havener: I know.
[01:00:42] John Bowman: I do not like, this is close to home, so I, I have a lot of friends. Yeah. So that, I don't want to offend here, but kind of the mercenary. Feel of investment banking?
[01:00:53] John Bowman: Oh. Uh, would be such a misfit for me. Mm-hmm. That I, I just, I, I think I'd be, uh, I think I'd really [01:01:00] struggle all the things we've talked about. Again, I wanna be careful in how I say this part are largely absent or pedestrian. Mm. As far as the, the values and the types of roles that I am good at and my skills are, are suited for.
[01:01:14] John Bowman: So I'd be bad at it. Let me just say that first. Well, yeah, I would be really bad at it, but, but I'd also, it would be, it would be not enjoyable for me
[01:01:21] Stacy Havener: either. Well not fit my style. Investment banking is transactional. That's what it is. It is a transaction. Exactly. And so, yeah, I think again, it's not better or worse, it's different and it's not right for you.
[01:01:36] Stacy Havener: That's great. Okay. Last but not least, and you've kind of nodded to this, and hopefully this is not anytime soon, but what do you want people to say about you after you've retired or left the industry?
[01:01:50] John Bowman: Hmm. He gave of himself to others or something like that. You know, he saw his role as contributions at any one of these firms.
[01:01:58] John Bowman: Mm-hmm. Not just the not-for-profits [01:02:00] I've worked for more recently, but like his time was about helping others. Yeah. Leaving a mark that was not about him. Mm-hmm. It was not about self-promotion or selfish ambition. It was about giving and helping others. Whether it's a client more explicitly in, in the job description of my role or just a, a young person that needed a little career advice.
[01:02:19] John Bowman: Like those are the things that, uh, are most meaningful and most, I think have the most staying power. Yeah. The other stuff, you know, you win here or there. That's great. And I, I, I want to win. I. I'm results oriented, but ultimately the things that really matter are helping people kind of achieve what they want to achieve and being that outlet or that advice giver or that door opener that they need to move forward.
[01:02:43] Stacy Havener: So well said. I think you do that every day. I think you've done that for me and for us on this podcast today. John, thank you so much for real, from the bottom of my heart for being here. This was an incredibly special conversation. [01:03:00]
[01:03:00] John Bowman: Well, I've listened a long time, Stacy. We've been friends mm-hmm. For several years, but it's nice to finally be in studio.
[01:03:05] John Bowman: Yeah. With you. It's been an absolute pleasure.
[01:03:08] Stacy Havener: Thank you so much. Reunion tour coming.
[01:03:11] John Bowman: I'll see you there.
[01:03:12] Stacy Havener: Okay. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products, or to adopt any investment strategy.
[01:03:27] Stacy Havener: Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance. All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Haven or Haven or Capital Partners.
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