Episode 95: Dan Mikulskis, CIO £31B People’s Partnership – How to Take Conference Panels from “Meh” to Magic
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Panels are everywhere in the asset management world. But let’s be honest, most of them aren’t exactly lighting the room on fire.
So why is something that seems so simple, so hard to get right? Is it really that tough to throw a few smart folks on stage and ask them questions?
To find out, Stacy called in her friend Dan Mikulskis. Dan is the Chief Investment Officer at the £31B People’s Partnership, and in his role, he’s become a go-to panelist for leading conferences across the UK and beyond.
But here’s the thing: Dan doesn’t just sit on panels. He thinks about how to make them better. And in this Episode, he’s breaking down his 3-step playbook for taking panels from “meh” to magic.
Plus, he and Stacy chat about:
What most panels get wrong (and how to fix it)
Tips for moderators who actually want to spark interesting conversations
How panelists can stop sounding like walking white papers
Why it’s still worth showing up for a panel, even though they’re not always perfect and take some time to prep for
About Dan Mikulskis:
Dan Mikulskis leads the investment team at The People’s Partnership, where he oversees the strategy behind the £31B People’s Pension Master Trust—one of the largest asset owners in the UK, serving over 6 million members.
A straight-talker in a noisy industry, Dan’s known for applying clear principles to complex investment decisions and always thinking with the asset owner in mind. He’s been in the investment world since 2003, with previous roles at Mercer, Redington, and LCP (where he was a partner). These days, he’s just as comfortable challenging the status quo on stage as he is behind the scenes shaping strategy.
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TRANSCRIPT
Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors.
[00:00:00] Dan Mikulskis: It's a bit of a misguided belief in that once I pay my money and I'm sat on that stage,
[00:00:05] yeah,
[00:00:05] Dan Mikulskis: Paul will listen to me. Whatever I say, however badly put together it is. They will listen to it. They will take it in, they will absorb it, they will remember it, and it's a complete failure to appreciate that.
[00:00:15] Dan Mikulskis: That is just not true at all. Right? You have to work so hard to be memorable and to be interesting.
[00:00:22] Stacy Havener: Hey, my name is Stacey Er. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the Toughest Boys Club, wall Street, I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow on assets for investment boutiques, you could say, against the odds.
[00:00:42] Stacy Havener: Yeah, understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk here, money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales and marketing are all topics we [00:01:00] discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college mixed with happy hour.
[00:01:07] Stacy Havener: Pull up a seat, grab your notebook, and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the Billion dollar Backstory. Podcast
[00:01:20] Stacy Havener: panels are a pretty big part of an industry conference, and yet how many of us have found them to be pretty painful? It seems simple. Throw a few experts on a stage, have someone ask them questions, and bob's your uncle. Unfortunately, simple things aren't always easy to get right. Today's episode is Magic on a couple Levels.
[00:01:46] Stacy Havener: It's a reunion podcast with one of our most popular guests from season one, my friend Dan Mikulski, who is now the CIO of The People's Partnership, a 30 billion pound pension scheme in the uk. [00:02:00] In Dan's new role, he is a sought after panelist at industry leading conferences and events. Panels are kind of one of his things, not just participating on them, but thinking about how to improve them.
[00:02:14] Stacy Havener: Today is a masterclass with a true leader in our industry as he helps event organizers, moderators, and panelists put a fresh spin on a conference, staple panels. Without further ado, let's reconnect with one of my British best, Dan Mikulski. Dan, welcome back to the podcast. This is a joy for me because you were one of the first guests we had on the podcast when I really didn't know what I was doing.
[00:02:43] Stacy Havener: I missed That's still true as we sit here today, but it's an honor to have you for the Dan Reunion show, as it shall here to four be known.
[00:02:51] Dan Mikulskis: Oh, hi Stacy. Yeah, it's, it's great to be back. Great to be talking to you again. I've been really looking forward to this.
[00:02:55] Stacy Havener: Great. So we have some updating to do [00:03:00] because when you were first on the pod, you had a certain role and now on the reunion tour you have a different role.
[00:03:08] Stacy Havener: So we're gonna start with story, but I'd like the new chapter, the update. Yeah, yeah,
[00:03:12] Dan Mikulskis: yeah. The, the new chapter update. So I'm now a Chief Investment Officer at People's Partnership. I've been in that role for about 18 months now. People's partnership run a large defined contribution pension fund here in the uk.
[00:03:24] Dan Mikulskis: We're about 30 billion pounds. Uh, about about $40 billion, uh, size. And yeah, it's grown very fast. Um, it's a really exciting story. It's an industry kind of driven, um, organization, so it's a sort of profit for member type pension fund. Um, and a lot and a lot of purpose behind, uh, the organization, which has been wonderful to tap into a little bit, but on, just on a huge, uh, growth journey in terms of where it's going.
[00:03:46] Dan Mikulskis: Um, yeah, and it's been so exciting to be a part of that for the last 18 months.
[00:03:49] Stacy Havener: And so if people didn't listen to the first pod, which I highly recommend because there's fantastic advice, one of my favorite things I come back to over and over again is in there about differentiators and [00:04:00] truisms, but if they didn't listen to that, you were, before you got this job, you were at LCP.
[00:04:06] Stacy Havener: So just talk about that evolution 'cause it's actually a pretty big change for you.
[00:04:12] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. Has been, yeah, I mean, I, I was, um, an investment consultant really for, for pretty much my whole career before that, about 20 years. I started my career at Mercer in London and then went via a few other routes. Um, worked for a firm called Redington for a while and then, and then LCP where I was for sort of five years.
[00:04:26] Dan Mikulskis: And then, you know, consulting is, I think it's a wonderful career. You get a great overview of different clients, different managers. You get to dive into all sorts of different projects there over the years and, and address a lot of really interesting questions. Um, you know, worked with a ton of great people there.
[00:04:39] Dan Mikulskis: And I think one of the main things I take away from it is just the overview you get of, you know, managers, asset classes, but then also working with different kind of types of asset owners. And I suppose that's what I try to sort of build on as I was talking to people's partnership about the role and now being in the role, just having that perspective over having worked with a number of different large asset owners over the years.
[00:04:58] Dan Mikulskis: And you sort of, yeah, [00:05:00] you build up a little perspective on. That's how I might do it differently or that thing seems to work really well, that doesn't work really well. They do this well, they do this badly, and sort of build up a little bit of that sense over the years. And obviously it's, it's an absolutely wonderful opportunity to actually be able to put some of that in practice and myself and really kind of back some of that vision that I've built up over the years.
[00:05:20] Stacy Havener: That's great. And that's actually, I'm sure a differentiator given that overview perspective of having seen a bunch of different clients, including pensions, but being able to bring that, and I wanna pull on this thread a little bit because you've been great. Um, I'm a subscriber to your newsletter and a friend on LinkedIn and you, you did a post earlier this year about trends and just kind of things you're seeing, things you're working on in this role.
[00:05:46] Stacy Havener: Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:05:49] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, I think what part of it is the sort of the rise of the asset owner. That was sort of part of the trend, wasn't it? And mm-hmm. And that's, I think, a very distinct kind of period of time. Um, you know, we saw a long period of time where [00:06:00] sort of asset managers were kind of in the ascendancy, perhaps especially large asset managers, you know, particularly in the uk I'm talking here, but also in a bit of a global context.
[00:06:07] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. And then they were sort of really driving the agenda and in the driving seats. And I, and I think more recently there's a little bit of a, a switching over there to sort of asset owners. Um, yeah, we are having a really interesting sort of moment in the uk. I keep saying because of the change in the, um, in the laws about 12 years ago, so that all employers had to subscribe their, their employees to a pension scheme.
[00:06:26] Dan Mikulskis: And now pension schemes like us are, are really growing fast because of that, that change, um, a. Here and there as well with regard to other types of pension scheme. But all of it means that we're seeing bigger, much bigger asset owners coming out now in the UK than what we've had really for my whole career.
[00:06:42] Dan Mikulskis: And I think it's really, um, interesting to see them 'cause of getting in the driving seat, see them shaping the industry a little bit more. I, I personally think it's a good thing. I think there's a real need for sort of principles who are able to, to shape things kind of their way, you know, as opposed to agents in the system to kind of, you know, set the standards really [00:07:00] and, and kind of say, look, this is how we wanna wanna go about things.
[00:07:02] Dan Mikulskis: So that was kind of a big part of the sort of landscape shift that, that I think you're seeing,
[00:07:06] Stacy Havener: you talk about something I love. So I'm gonna tee it up here and it's kind of like a tagline of yours, I think, which is small teams important work. Can you unpack that for us?
[00:07:18] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, I, that's probably, um, a huge life lesson that I took away from my time working at, at Redington, which is, uh, an investment consulting firm.
[00:07:26] Dan Mikulskis: Um, I, I joined them when there were about 30 people, so kind of slightly post them being a startup, but it still felt pretty startup ish. And I worked there when I left, they were about 200, something like that. And, and what was just really clear was that when you are 30 people as a team, you can punch so far above your weight.
[00:07:43] Dan Mikulskis: It's ridiculous.
[00:07:44] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:44] Dan Mikulskis: Um, and I really saw that every day that we, we were competing with and doing better than teams that were far bigger and on paper should have been just far better. And, and it really stayed with me, I guess as a lesson. And I suppose why is that? And I think it's the you 30 people, you can get in one room pretty much, and you [00:08:00] can see everyone, you can talk to everyone.
[00:08:01] Dan Mikulskis: You can get so connected, you can get so aligned and on the same page. And that counts for a lot. And as soon as you get bigger, you're reliant on, you know, corporate structures. You're reliant on the cascade of information. There's gonna be loads of little misunderstandings, people not quite aligned, not on the same page.
[00:08:17] Dan Mikulskis: A lot of time gets wasted, unproductive stuff happens. Whereas as a small tight team, you can get so connected and you really can perform, you know, much higher than, than what you might think. Um, so that's something that stayed with me. I, I think that's true, you know, across a lot of kind of different organizations in general, but I think with asset owners it's definitely true.
[00:08:35] Dan Mikulskis: You know, partly because asset owners where we can get so much kind of leverage and benefit from kind of the partnerships we have with managers. So you really can think about, you know, what exactly do we need in our team internally.
[00:08:46] Mm-hmm.
[00:08:47] Dan Mikulskis: Um, and then you can sort of, you can outsource a lot of the work that you might, you know, in a, in a different world need to build, um, kind of big teams behind.
[00:08:54] Dan Mikulskis: Um, so they, yeah, that's something that's really kind of stayed with me.
[00:08:57] Stacy Havener: Along those lines, you also [00:09:00] made some big changes with respect to how you're approaching partnerships with asset managers. I'm thinking about some of the news that recently came out. Some, some major changes you made for people's partnership in asset allocation, manager selection.
[00:09:15] Stacy Havener: Can you talk about sort of the overall vision of what you're doing, this important work that your team is doing?
[00:09:22] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, I think you've gotta have a bit of a philosophy of how you're gonna go about things. Yeah. Don, you really, and as I say, I sort of built that up over a number of years, I suppose, observing what other people did, thinking where maybe it was great and other areas where it wasn't so good and areas where it could be improved.
[00:09:34] Dan Mikulskis: And I also think you've gotta have a bit of a sense of what your edge is as an asset owner. What can you actually do differently? What can you do? Well? And so it was taking those sort of things and kind of running with it. And, and I guess a lot of asset owners, when they get to, you know, to our sort of size, you know, call it 40, $50 billion, it's often quite normal to have dozens of asset managers working for you.
[00:09:52] Dan Mikulskis: Mm-hmm. You know, so, so 2030 wouldn't be uncommon. 50 60 pluses is not uncommon at all. And I can see why that, that [00:10:00] happens. You know, you, you get teams that are very specialized. You have teams whose job it is to pick managers. And so not surprisingly, they pick, you pick managers, you know, you get involved in, you know, doing private markets and closed ended funds, and you're constantly looking at the next vintage who's raising and all that.
[00:10:14] Dan Mikulskis: So I, I get sort of why it happens and, and I suppose I felt that. You maybe miss something when you spread things that thinly across so many managers. 'cause I felt that so many managers have built up, you know, really good kind of teams that can add a lot of value across our business. Not not just managing the assets we're to manage.
[00:10:33] Dan Mikulskis: They can do a ton of, uh, other stuff for us. And the, the sense was you could maybe tap into that if we had these kind of really deep partnerships where we worked with a smaller number of asset managers but had, you know, pretty big mandates to span quite a lot of, um, different areas and then really worked with them on all sorts of other areas, whether that's working on the asset allocation piece, whether that's working on kind of new products, you know, sort of new innovation there.
[00:10:57] Dan Mikulskis: Whether we're getting insight in policy, whether it's actually [00:11:00] data and systems we're getting from 'em as well. Sometimes, um, whether it's sort of partnership with new products and that sort of stuff. So that was the, the idea. We're still in the early days of it, so I'm not gonna sort of take a victory lap at this stage and say, wow, look, hasn't it been great?
[00:11:12] Dan Mikulskis: Um, but it is working, I'd say so far it is sort of proving out that we can leverage those relationships really well when we keep them. Sort of large. And obviously, you know, we get very aligned. We get really good traction with the managers in terms of the, the fees that they charge us as well. And obviously we're a fast growing scheme, so it's a good proposition from their side as well.
[00:11:30] Dan Mikulskis: So that was one difference that I felt that that was something that, that a lot of asset owners maybe had maybe missed. And that was worth kind of going back. And you, you do find, actually strangely enough, when I talked to obviously loads of asset owners all the time, I talk to people who have a lot more managers and mm-hmm they do sometimes sort of go like, yeah, I get it.
[00:11:48] Dan Mikulskis: It is a bit too many, isn't it? And you know, wish it was less. So. I think people do recognize it a bit, but often you create a structure where you are always just adding another manager. It's very tempting. I get it.
[00:11:59] Stacy Havener: And I think [00:12:00] to your point, our industry sort of prioritizes complexity.
[00:12:05] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:05] Stacy Havener: Not always for the right reason.
[00:12:08] Stacy Havener: Right. Because if you're doing complicated things or you've got lots of managers, it's like you're quote, earning your fee or whatever.
[00:12:17] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, that that's exactly right. Actually there, there isn't a sort of counterbalance to it, right? Yeah. It's suggesting a new manager almost always seems like a good idea and it's very, um, people rarely say no because there's just no obvious reasons.
[00:12:30] Dan Mikulskis: It's to say no to it. And the, the other thing I've realized is that the way you sort of set up your own team on the asset owner side, as someone said this to me recently, that hiring is destiny really in terms of how you end up evolving your own model, right? In, in that, if you create quite a sophisticated, complicated structure on your end where you've got, say, I don't know, you've got a, maybe you've got a head of public markets ahead of equities, ahead of emerging market equities ahead of DM equities.
[00:12:54] Yeah.
[00:12:54] Dan Mikulskis: And, and you start going to, maybe then you've got a UK equities team, of course they're all gonna want to have their own managers, their own [00:13:00] relationships. And so the, the team that you create on your side, it is gonna be reflected in what you end up with. And so we've tried to stick to having slightly more generalist kind of teams and try and resist the temptation.
[00:13:12] Dan Mikulskis: To get sort of really specialized in terms of the roles you have. 'cause the, the more kind of specialized you get. I think you do risk creating silos a little bit and you risk creating a little bit of an unhelpful tension for sort of a capital. Um, and then you'll also create something more complicated on the managers you have because yeah, every team will want their own group of managers.
[00:13:31] Dan Mikulskis: And, and the more specialized your team is, the more and more levels of specialization you'll wanna go to on the manager side.
[00:13:37] Stacy Havener: And I imagine for the clients you serve now at people's partnership, there might be, well, if I put myself in your shoes as you're talking about this, I'm thinking, gosh, and it's, there's sort of a freedom to it because your clients don't, they don't give a shit really.
[00:13:52] Stacy Havener: They're, you're not, they don't care if, how many complicated. Esoteric, you know, strategy you're running. They [00:14:00] want to be able to retire and have a, you know, a good pension. They don't care how you get, there's, is there a freedom to That's,
[00:14:07] Dan Mikulskis: yeah. That, that's right. Exactly. Yeah. No, it's, it's returns that, that, that really matters.
[00:14:10] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. We, we have 7 million underlying members, customers in the uk that's individuals and that's sort of a hundred thousand employers who are using us as their pension. But a lot of those employers, they. They're two, three person businesses. A lot of these people are sort of frontline workers in kind of hourly paid jobs.
[00:14:27] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. Maybe retail and the hospitality industry. They're not gonna be engaging to the extent of looking at what the manager lineup is. But yes, they, they're gonna care about the, the returns we can generate. Right. Can we grow their pension in a decent way? So it, it definitely gives you a bit of freedom, but we've tried to be quite focused in saying, you know, what are new managers gonna add to the portfolio?
[00:14:46] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. And I don't wanna come across as like only ever wanting to have three managers and that's it. It's more about kind of picking your spots, you know, figuring out the areas. Are there areas where adding managers is gonna be better? Are there areas where active management can [00:15:00] really work for us? And not starting from the assumption that it's active everywhere all the time, but more kind of, can we focus on the bits where it can add value, where we, if we add a little bit of complexity, is that really gonna pay us well in terms of the returns or pay our members well in terms of the returns we can generate and the sort of the insights we can get.
[00:15:16] Dan Mikulskis: So I think holding up quite a high bar to that is quite. Sort of helpful rather than just going down the road of assuming that you want every asset class to be active. Um, and then you, you, you're sort of on the way to building these huge portfolios of managers. It's kind of, you know, picking our spots a little bit more carefully, thinking about where in the portfolio active can work, um, and where, where sort of passive can work and, and may, maybe they're just a little bit of backstory in terms of the uk this part of the UK pensions landscape, right?
[00:15:42] Dan Mikulskis: It's kind of, it's very much grown out of a kind of very simple, very low cost approach to investing. That was where the whole UK defined contribution market has come from, which isn't the worst place to start, let's be honest. I'd say it's probably better than a high complexity, um, high fee place. [00:16:00] But now with getting bigger, getting pretty big, we can start to step outside of that a little bit.
[00:16:05] Dan Mikulskis: I think when the, the funds were small. It was, you know, global, passive, you know, was just what was done because that was, that was really all, all that could be sort of entertained. But now we're bigger, we can do more. And so it is about holding that, um, hurdle up and saying, you know what, what stuff is gonna get, gets over the hurdle to get into the portfolio now that we can consider some extra things.
[00:16:26] Dan Mikulskis: Um, so I think was quite helpful. Got it. Discipline coming from that place as a starting point. Yes. And then sort of carefully stepping outta it, and obviously we've been through a decade where simple stuff has worked really well, right? Passive global equity has done really well. Now will it always, and probably not, but again, it's a good, helpful kind of discipline to say, well, have these other things, have they sort of proved themselves or, or are they just sort of complexity for the sake of it?
[00:16:51] Stacy Havener: Yeah, great backstory, also great for people listening to hear and take in, not just for the situation at [00:17:00] people's partnership, but to really be able to put yourself in the shoes of what the going through. So if you were. Let's just say you were coming from a complex structure and you're simplifying.
[00:17:10] Stacy Havener: That's very different than you're coming from a simple structure and you're adding complexity exactly where it makes sense. And if we want to work with you or any allocator, understanding that story and that context is critical to being a good partner.
[00:17:25] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. Yeah. So thank
[00:17:26] Stacy Havener: you for sharing that.
[00:17:27] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, I think, I think that's right.
[00:17:28] Dan Mikulskis: Sorry, just 1, 1, 1 more, one more point on that. Yeah. I got a lot of, I get a lot of incoming, um, emails, as you might expect from all sorts of managers. Yes. But, um, you know, particularly private credit, you might be in, in interested to know that there's probably 90% of the incoming is from there and a lot of the times they're, yeah.
[00:17:40] Dan Mikulskis: I think managers do miss the point a little bit 'cause they're almost positioning their strategy is how it fits in a. Answering the question, why should I do that at all? It's almost coming from the assumption that, well, obviously you're doing this kind of 10 sleeve multi-strat private credit thing, and this is how we can play in one of those sleeves.
[00:17:58] Dan Mikulskis: And it's a bit like, well, [00:18:00] don't even know if we're gonna do any of that sort of thing. Right. Um, but you can see how the assumption has become so ingrained that people do that, that they're playing to that rather than kind of asking the question.
[00:18:09] Stacy Havener: It's, it's one of my pet peeves. And I think actually a huge speaking of edge and differentiator, a huge differentiator that salespeople, business development people on the asset management side can do, which is, as opposed to the old way of coming up with a template that you're just gonna like send off and mass quantities to everyone you know, and people you don't, um, actually taking the time to do the research ahead of this email or this call so that we can say, Dan, hey, read this article, understand what you're doing, what the trends are, what, and this email that I'm now crafting is specific to you.
[00:18:47] Yeah.
[00:18:47] Stacy Havener: And people don't wanna put that work in. It's like so much work to do it, but that is where the magic is. That's how you create that partnership and understanding. So I love that you shared that.
[00:18:57] Dan Mikulskis: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the very few of the emails [00:19:00] tend to be personalized and tend to suggest any kind of reading or listening.
[00:19:04] Dan Mikulskis: And I and I, I write a ton of stuff and you do just do a million podcasts. It's not difficult to find something that I've written or said and refer back to it. So that would be always be a good step.
[00:19:12] Stacy Havener: Yeah. See, write that down. People. This is, this is your homework. Okay. So, because of all of this, one of the things that we've talked about is you've been in the press on panels, you know, all kinds of, of sort of more public facing, more outwardly facing roles.
[00:19:31] Stacy Havener: And we've had some very fun chats about panels. And so that's the sub beam of the reunion pod today, because you have. A lot of experience. Experience and, and experience. A growing amount of experience speaking at bigger and bigger conferences. And I wanna really help our audience get better at this because panels can be atrocious.
[00:19:56] Yeah.
[00:19:56] Stacy Havener: So let's start at the beginning. Um, let's just, we're gonna, you know, [00:20:00] go up a level. Why, if you're a conference, and I know you've just come back from some, if you're a conference, you're an event planner, why a panel? Like you could just keynote all day long and have one speaker, which would be simpler in some ways.
[00:20:14] Stacy Havener: Yeah. So why do conferences, what's the benefit of doing a panel just in general?
[00:20:19] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, I mean, uh, great question and thanks for the chance to talk about this, by the way. Yeah. Because I honestly, I bore people silly about this thing about panels and it's so great to get all of my thoughts down on this podcast and I can just direct people into that rather than boring anymore.
[00:20:31] Dan Mikulskis: There go. But let's massively geek out on this. 'cause I've really thought about this, um, quite a lot, trying to put myself in the shoes of an event organizer. I think it's a few things, and some of them are a little bit misguided and some of them are probably reasonable instincts. So I think on the reasonable instincts front, they think, well, a series of keynotes, one after the other is a bit much, so let's mix up the format.
[00:20:52] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. I think that's, that's one reaction. I think that's actually a pretty fair one. Although, um, by the way, I would say they often skip over some other formats that [00:21:00] can be equally as good, like fireside chats, for example. Mm-hmm. As something that isn't done enough in terms of different formats. So, so that, that's one, that's one in, I think another one, which is maybe a little misguided, is people think, oh my goodness, there are so many great speakers that I want at my conference.
[00:21:14] Dan Mikulskis: We could only have room for four keynotes, so to pack more of them in, let's stick them on a panel. Now again, I can see why they say that potentially misguided, because a panel shouldn't be four different keynotes. Obviously that is one of the fundamental problems. With some panels, it's sets up as if it's four different keynotes and it shouldn't be saying that's one slight issue.
[00:21:34] Dan Mikulskis: Another issue, um, and it's sort of elephant in the room here, but we should about a, is the influence of the kind of pay to play model in conferences generally. Yeah. And we, I that comes into play and if it's a play type conference. They're gonna wanna show that they can attract a lot of kind of, you know, asset owners maybe, or allocators or whatever kind of decision maker the people paying gonna want.
[00:21:55] Dan Mikulskis: And one way of attracting a lot of them is to get them on, on panels so that, you know, that's a reasonable [00:22:00] instinct I guess in, in, in that model. I don't necessarily love that model, but it is what it is, what it is. So I think that that's another kind of instinct. Um, so yeah, I, I think it's a mix of, um, there's so many great people out there and only having keynotes restricts you too much.
[00:22:12] Dan Mikulskis: We wanna have more people involved. It's a bit of saying, I think we wanna have a varied kind of tenor of the kind of conversations. Mm-hmm. Which I think is a, is a reasonable kind of instinct and a little bit of wanting to be able to get more kind of decision makers around. That's the kind of the best I could sort of come up with in terms of their reasoning.
[00:22:28] Stacy Havener: I think it's so true. And I also, so I love that you said, you know, the events wanna have a lot of asset owners, so they put 'em on panels. There's also sort of a dark side, not to be the dark side with arsenic and our coffee here, but the dark side of it is the asset managers. It's like, I want them to sponsor the conference and write a big check so I have to put them on a panel.
[00:22:49] Stacy Havener: Yeah. Because they wanna speak. And that last one, sort of that darker side, which is very real and understandable. And if I'm a conference organizer, I, I hate that I have to deal with this [00:23:00] because it makes me sort of, you know, change what I want the true essence of that panel to be. But what it ends up doing, and I wanna talk about this next, is it creates just total disjointed panel vision and goals.
[00:23:14] Stacy Havener: Yeah, it can, because everybody has their own agenda.
[00:23:16] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. That it makes it trickier. But I was thinking about this earlier, that in, in theory, in a pay-to-play world, that is the world where panels should be, there's most incentive to make panels great, right? But it's often the, what leads to them being the worst, which is bizarre because you've been to conferences where managers are paying big, big money to be in these panels.
[00:23:36] Dan Mikulskis: And I'm thinking to myself, why are they not obsessed with making sure that that is as great as it could be? And the same with the organizer. They're, you know, receiving a lot money for those. Yeah, they should be as incentivized as you could be to make them brilliant. But unfortunately, that often isn't the case.
[00:23:50] Dan Mikulskis: And I think, again, it's a bit of a misguided sort of. Belief in that once I pay my money and I'm sat on that stage,
[00:23:57] yeah,
[00:23:58] Dan Mikulskis: Paul will listen to me. Whatever I say, [00:24:00] however badly put together it is however badly presented as it, they will listen to it. They will take it in, they will absorb it, they will remember it.
[00:24:06] Dan Mikulskis: And it's a complete failure to appreciate that. That is just not true at all. Right. You have to work so hard to be memorable and to be interesting. You know, we all see a million panels and a million presentations that go straight out the back of your head, you know, before the person's even finished speaking.
[00:24:21] Dan Mikulskis: And I, I think it's almost a sort of, I dunno if it's kind of old, I dunno if it was ever true to be honest, but it's almost a bit of a harking back to some old world where everyone who was on the stage was instantly listened to, um, and instantly remembered. And today's world is a battle for attention the whole time.
[00:24:35] Dan Mikulskis: Right. Wow. It really is. And, no, no, yeah, exactly. No, no. More so than when, when you're at a conference. And yes, you would've thought that the people that were actually paying good money to be on that stage would take that on board. But often they don't, unfortunately. And they, they let. Organizers get away with poor panels, and they also don't make the most of the panels that they're on as well.
[00:24:55] Dan Mikulskis: Um, so yeah, I, as I say, I don't love pay to play, but it should be so much better as well. [00:25:00] And in fact, it should be the best because that is where you've got, you know, real money on the line in those situations, which, which ought to make it better.
[00:25:08] Stacy Havener: Are you an investment boutique looking to grow your business and need a little help?
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[00:25:31] Stacy Havener: You'll refine your story, focus on your ideal target market and practice your pitch. You'll rethink your marketing materials, rewrite your emails, and refresh your differentiators. We'll even help you step up your LinkedIn game and give your profile a makeover. You wanna grow your biz. We've got your back.
[00:25:48] Stacy Havener: Learn more about the collective, the curriculum, and the amazing coaches who will help you on your journey. Visit Haven or capital.com/collective high five. Hope to see you in a coaching session [00:26:00] soon.
[00:26:06] Stacy Havener: It's such a great point. And no one could see me when I held my phone up. But as Dan was talking, I held my phone up. 'cause it's not just that you're, you're competing for the attention of the people in the room and them being present and listening to you as you talk. You also have to compete with their phone.
[00:26:23] Stacy Havener: 'cause any one of them could pick up their phone at any time when you're boring them and they could just start scrolling. So yeah, it's a noisy world and panels need to do a better job. So with that in mind, let's talk about, you gave us already a glimpse of this, why they typically don't work. Let's keep going with that.
[00:26:41] Stacy Havener: So don't worry, we're gonna keep pouring arsenic in the coffee and then we're gonna stop. Then we're at the end. Perfect. You're gonna make, yes. Okay. Let's get out. Get out
[00:26:49] Dan Mikulskis: a laundry list. Laundry list. Yeah.
[00:26:50] Stacy Havener: Yeah. Let's keep going.
[00:26:52] Dan Mikulskis: So I, I think all of this comes down to three different areas, right? So you've got the conference organizer, you've got the moderator, and you've got the panel participants, right?
[00:26:59] Dan Mikulskis: And [00:27:00] they can all contribute to it being. Bad and they can all have a role to play in making it better as well. But if we're focusing on the mm-hmm. Or the do wrong first. Yeah. Then let's start with the organizers and Yes, I think you've gotta think about who's on the panel. Put it together well. Right. The first mistake can be there's just too many people on it.
[00:27:16] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. We do not need five, six people. That is far too many. It just doesn't work. Never gonna work. Um, the second one is having completely disjointed set of people on it. Um, and you do definitely see there has to be some kind of thought, I think, put into what's the story here? Are these people, you know, gonna, gonna have some kind of coherent story?
[00:27:34] Dan Mikulskis: I think you do need to put a little bit of thought into. You, you want a bit of a, if, if to be really good. The people on the panel, I think have to feel a bit like their peers, um, with each other. Yeah. Right. You, you don't want these big imbalances of perceived kind of, um, experience, let's say, or status or whatever.
[00:27:50] Dan Mikulskis: That will just make it difficult. So I think that's an important part. Um, ideally you do want some different angles on a, on a common subject. Yeah. You want people [00:28:00] who are gonna be kind of reasonably forthright, but you don't want people who are just gonna, you know, lobb a grenade in the middle of everyone and kind of be too annoying.
[00:28:07] Dan Mikulskis: So, I mean, this is quite a, a tricky thing as, as, as becoming clear, right? I'm, I'm, I'm being quite fussy here in terms of who, who we can put on our panels. Um, and, you know, you're not always gonna be able to solve all those, but I think a little bit of thought on behalf of the, the organizer there is always good.
[00:28:23] Dan Mikulskis: And the other thing to avoid, as I alluded to before. Wanting to put four people on because they're all great speakers individually and sort of trying to turn it into four separate keynotes. Um, yeah, it just sort of doesn't work. So you have to have people that, that Yeah, there's one topic we can talk about.
[00:28:37] Dan Mikulskis: Um, and, and actually a bit of thought about the topic even as well, I think is, does get missed. 'cause often it's like, you know, private markets go sort of thing. It's just like where, wherever you do that. Whereas if you can be a little bit more focused around the question, I think people will, will come to the party on that.
[00:28:53] Dan Mikulskis: So, you know, part one of how panels can go bad, I think lies with, uh, the organizer.
[00:28:58] Stacy Havener: Agreed, well [00:29:00] said. And I would add, what is the goal? If the, or if I'm the organizer, then I wanna sit in the quiet without somebody telling me about the sponsors who are paying or the people we need to have on the panel. I wanna sit in the quiet and think about what is the goal of this panel.
[00:29:15] Stacy Havener: So if the topic is private markets, then I really wanna understand for the audience. What part of private markets do they really care about right now and is gonna be meaningful to them? And if I can articulate before I start designing this thing and who's on it and all that stuff, if I can articulate what we want to accomplish and what the goal is, then I have sort of a north star in figuring out the rest, including the moderator, which I know we're gonna get to that in the three constituents.
[00:29:44] Stacy Havener: So continue on. Loving, loving this.
[00:29:48] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. So where, where, wait, so that was the organizer. The second one is the moderator. Yeah.
[00:29:51] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:29:51] Dan Mikulskis: Um, and the, yeah, the moderator has a huge role in getting right. I think, um, you know, a good moderator can add a bit of levity, can sort of help people connect with the audience.[00:30:00]
[00:30:00] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. Just kind of lower the stakes a little bit, make it a bit less stiff. Whereas often moderators don't, don't do that. But people, no one out there is a professional moderator. Right. Often these are people who've been effectively persuaded by the organizer. It's a favor. They're effectively a volunteer.
[00:30:14] Dan Mikulskis: It's not their job to done it. So, um, again, it's a little bit tricky. It's, it's maybe expecting too much for. Plow, you know, they're not gonna plow hours and hours and days of their life into prepping this panel, which is just one thing. So, so that is a little bit tricky. Uh, I think some of the bigger ticket conferences, um, are onto a good thing and using kind of, you know, TV hosts and things.
[00:30:33] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. You sometimes see that that really works because that's the major thing. And having someone who can just create the right, you know, vibe for want of a better word, um, among the people, you know, connect with the audience, get it a little bit, a little bit lighthearted and stuff, you know, just to get it a bit, a bit fun.
[00:30:48] Dan Mikulskis: Um, I, I think that is important. You know, often you will get either, either they want a host who's quite high profile but maybe doesn't have the time to devote to prepping it, which is a bit of shame. Yeah. Or the [00:31:00] organizers kind of see that as their kind of treat, if you like, and they'll put someone senior internally from their organization on it, who again, maybe isn't always the best.
[00:31:09] Dan Mikulskis: Um, so, so yeah, I, I think the choice of the moderator is pretty key. And then also. Moderator has to do some work basically in trying to bring the panel together beforehand, get a bit of a sense of where people's views lie. Um, trying to chart a bit of a course through the thing. Yeah, so adding a bit of levity, um, being able to connect people, introducing people in a kind of smooth way.
[00:31:29] Dan Mikulskis: And then ideally being able to, you know, riff off the cuff a little bit and sort of push back and bring bits of their own view in there as well. Um, obviously without making it too much about them, which is another kind of big error that that does happen sometimes. The kind of monologue panel intro. So yeah, the moderator is the kind of tricky one and often, um, I just wanna say actually, yeah, you don't wanna heap too much on the moderator because you're asking just too much in some ways.
[00:31:53] Dan Mikulskis: And often when I have these very fun conversations with people about panels, uh, that have had a lot, people [00:32:00] always very tempting to say, oh yeah, that's all the moderator's job. And it's like, well come on, we gotta help them out a little bit, haven't we? If we're panelists, I think you've gotta really, um, you can't just leave it all to the moderator 'cause it's just asking too much.
[00:32:10] Dan Mikulskis: And as I say, half the time they. Effectively a volunteer or someone who's been persuaded to do it and it's not really their job. So yes, moderator's important, they can do some stuff, but I think we as panelists need to kind of really come to the party as well and try and help them out. 'cause we can't put it all on them.
[00:32:26] Stacy Havener: Agreed. And adding, I do actually think the moderator, I kind of, I don't disagree with you. I would just like to say from my point of view with a moderator, that is their job, it is their panel. And they shouldn't accept that position if they're not willing to sort of put the work in to do all the things you outlined.
[00:32:47] Stacy Havener: So if you just get up as a moderator and you're like, hi Dan, your turn, Stacey, your turn, you know, Johnny your turn and that's all you do, that's a waste. Yeah. Um, because you [00:33:00] know, the, the tough part of a panel for everyone who's on it, from moderator to panelists is that it's about the balance. Of time as well as the questions that are being asked.
[00:33:13] Stacy Havener: So if the questions suck, the panel's gonna suck unless you're a very talented speaker that knows how to block and bridge and do all that stuff. So you need someone who's good at asking questions. I mean, if I'm a conference organizer and I can't afford a TV host, which is probably true for most conference organizers, I would go to podcast hosts.
[00:33:33] Stacy Havener: Honestly, like, and this is not about me, this is about, you have a ton of people who run podcasts, and guess what? They have to be really good at asking questions.
[00:33:44] Yeah.
[00:33:44] Stacy Havener: And that's really what you want, is somebody who understands that their role is to pull things out of the people who are on the panel. So it's a big job and I think they need to take it seriously too.
[00:33:54] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, it's, it's a good point. That is a really good point. And you've just reminded me of a couple other kind of obvious, um, yeah. [00:34:00] Things that moderators can do that that, that are not good. One of them that's sort of a bit of a pet peeve of mine is, is, um, have been on panels sometimes where moderators try and introduce all the, what they actually introduce.
[00:34:10] Dan Mikulskis: All the panelists themselves didn't even let you talk. And so I was on a panel recently, it was a 45 minute panel. We're 25 minutes in, I haven't even opened my mouth. And, um, it's like, I think that's a little bit of a fail on behalf of the panel organizer. Oh, totally fail. You got the intros, like, use it equally.
[00:34:24] Dan Mikulskis: The panelist needs to keep those short and resist the temptations to a monologue. But I think introducing everyone and then the other big fail of moderators sometimes is just they've got a list of questions. They're just throwing each one down the line. Yeah. Each and next question to the next person.
[00:34:37] Dan Mikulskis: Like, oh, you. Pitch every question to every person. You, you gotta have some kind of, um, yeah. It might be that the very first question, it makes sense for everyone to opine on and then you've gotta somehow be a little bit more nimble. That's right. In terms of different people answering different bits, going in a different order, picking people out to sort of answer it, throwing in their own questions.
[00:34:57] Dan Mikulskis: And then the other thing I people seem often tempted [00:35:00] to do is, you know, they'll get to halfway through the panel time and then be like, right, let's throw it open to the audience. And I always cringe a little bit internally at that point 'cause it's like audience questions are often a bit rubbish. Yeah.
[00:35:11] Dan Mikulskis: And as long as they can be all right, but they're often a bit rubbish and it's just a bit random. Whereas I just think I. You are the moderator, you can control what's being asked if you stick to your script. So I, I do think it's like, you know, yeah, be better. It's form a stronger view. It's upfront about where the line of questioning should go here and just stick to it.
[00:35:28] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. Don't kind of have the cop out of just throwing open to the audience. 'cause then you, you must have been there. Audience member, ah, one stands up, does a one minute monologue and then throws five different questions on the table. A hundred percent. It's bit like how are we picking, how are we picking that up?
[00:35:42] Dan Mikulskis: And um, whereas I just think the moderator, you've got the mic use it. You know, you think about where should we go here? Where's the questioning? Where's the story that's gonna emerge here? What are some of the areas of tension? And just try and tease that out a little bit.
[00:35:55] Stacy Havener: Embrace your inner Jimmy Fallon, if you will, and a little flavor [00:36:00] of Flave.
[00:36:00] Stacy Havener: I mean, you need to channel a lot of heroes of mine here. Okay. So it's very true. And it's a tough job. It's a tough job. So yeah, that's where the moderator goes awry or that's where that can go wrong. How about for the panelists?
[00:36:14] Dan Mikulskis: Right. Well, for the panelists, um, and there was obviously the, the situation I find myself in, um, more often than not.
[00:36:20] Dan Mikulskis: So I've got a three step playbook for oh, to be a good panelist, right? So yes, and I can go into all the detail you want on this, but step one is try and make the audience laugh. Connect with them a little bit, right? So we are not talking big time clever jokes here. We're not talking about trying to be a comedian or anything.
[00:36:38] Dan Mikulskis: It's something really obvious that just gives a bit of connection to the audience. So it's whether you are like even something as dumb as commenting on the weather or the, that we're in, or some current events or a sport or whatever. Like, just, just something really obvious, but. You do get, tends to get quite a good laugh.
[00:36:55] Dan Mikulskis: Even if you say something really lame is my experience, because people just want that little release of [00:37:00] tension and they, they want to be able to connect.
[00:37:02] Ah.
[00:37:02] Dan Mikulskis: So, and, and that needs a bit planning, I would say. You want, you want to kind of plan that. Um, and yeah, one route into it is if you are, let's say you're an international conference, you can often make a joke at your own expense or something.
[00:37:12] Dan Mikulskis: Or you can make a joke at your own sort of nationalities expense is an easy route into it at an international thing, you know, if you've traveled or something, you can often sort of make a joke about, you know, where you've come from, something like that. You know, the weather, the time of year, ISIS is basic, basic stuff.
[00:37:25] Dan Mikulskis: So I think that's step one. And you do see, like you connects a little bit. You make people laugh that it changes the whole vibe of it. People sit differently in the seats, you know, it really works a lot better. So that's step one.
[00:37:36] Mm-hmm.
[00:37:37] Dan Mikulskis: Uh, and then I always say step two is just say something that people are gonna remember, right?
[00:37:43] Stacy Havener: Gosh. Yeah. And, and again,
[00:37:44] Dan Mikulskis: um, you are gonna wanna plan that a little bit because you aren't not just gonna be able to wing it and pick that out of thin air. Most stuff. But get said, yeah. Most stuff that I say gets forgotten straight away. Right? Of course, you are in a battle for attention and a battle for relevance the whole time.[00:38:00]
[00:38:00] Dan Mikulskis: But think of something. And I, and I think some good ways into that are thinking, you know, what's an interesting anecdote that was surprising? Or something, or an example that you might give, something you can draw on that's a little bit out of the norm. Might even be a little data point, a little factoid, a little kind of news thing.
[00:38:19] Dan Mikulskis: Um, you know, I, I think if you start thinking about it, um, it's possible to, to sort of think of it. Um, and tho those are the sort of things that I think are worth building your early part of your panel contribution around. 'cause the first part of your contribution as a panelist is gonna be, you know, not quite set peace, but it's gonna be stuff that you've thought about hopefully, and, and, and you kind of.
[00:38:38] Dan Mikulskis: Laying out your, your things. I, I would throw that on the table fairly early in your sort of piece. And then the third step is to sort of interchange a little bit with the other panelists. So riff off something they've said rather than relying a hundred percent on the moderator, working through them the whole time.
[00:38:53] Dan Mikulskis: You know, so that requires a little bit more agility in the moment. Obviously you can't plan that and you gotta look for the right opportunity. You don't wanna [00:39:00] interrupt someone, you gotta be a little careful. But I think it's always possible to sort of give off the vibes that you wanna say something and people will sort of react to it.
[00:39:07] Dan Mikulskis: And, and I think one simple way of that is just to do a build on, right? So just when someone else is finished. Yeah. Just to build on what Stacey was saying. Yes, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think when you're listening to that in the audience, that just sounds so much better and more natural than the kind of big pause.
[00:39:22] Dan Mikulskis: Then the moderator takes it back and then the moderator asks it again. And so the, the good panels are not, in my experience, it's probably, I. I dunno, I might even say it's less than half of panels where you get actual interaction between the panelists as opposed to everything going through the moderator.
[00:39:36] Dan Mikulskis: But it's definitely what you wanna aim for and it's quite nice if you can sort of, you know, respectfully in a nice way, sort of push back a little bit and just say, Hey look, just to test a little bit. Or actually I've got a different perspective there on that. I think that is the real gold that you wanna get to in panels.
[00:39:52] Dan Mikulskis: But you, you gotta be careful there because some people take that too far and kind of like want to just do a tear down of, of the other person or kind of [00:40:00] throw grenades and stuff and that will obviously shut down and stifle a kind of good sort of discussion. Um, yeah, a lot of people start off assuming that panels will be this great debate where these different points of view emerge, but the, the reality is that most of them are extremely uniform and it's this kind of uniform nodding and agreeing that sort of emerges from it.
[00:40:19] Dan Mikulskis: So I, I almost sort of think that you gotta try and ban yourself from saying the words. Yeah, yeah. I agree with so and so. I think, don't trying to say. Okay, here's a slightly different perspective on that point. You know, you might not always have a differentiate perspective. Obviously, you might actually genuinely agree, but it is just nice to try and find those different angles and get into a little bit of a, a sort of a debate with the, with the other individuals.
[00:40:42] Stacy Havener: Okay? So recap the three steps, the playbook,
[00:40:46] Dan Mikulskis: uh, step one, connect with the audience, mate 'em, laugh a little bit. Yep. Two, plan that in advance. Step two, say something memorable. It's gonna be remembered.
[00:40:53] Stacy Havener: Yes. Okay. And step
[00:40:54] Dan Mikulskis: three, try and actually interact with your other panelists directly rather than mm-hmm.
[00:40:59] Dan Mikulskis: Um, [00:41:00] just waiting for the moderator to direct it. So if every panelist did that, I think panelists would be a lot better, but most don't.
[00:41:05] Stacy Havener: So this is great. Also, love three steps. Uh, human brain loves three steps, so that was an awesome framework to share. Thank you for that. It kind of goes back to what we talked about in the beginning.
[00:41:17] Stacy Havener: It's simple, but just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and they're not. So it's simple, but it's challenging. One of the things you said that I wanna build on is the counterpoints of view. And one of the reasons I think that panelists don't naturally go there is because they don't have permission.
[00:41:41] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm. So, if you think about, again, when you're doing that prep call with the moderator, if the moderator says, we want you to have different perspectives, like that's one of the goals of this panel.
[00:41:55] Mm-hmm. And
[00:41:55] Stacy Havener: so we don't want you to be a jerk about it, but if you have a different [00:42:00] point of view from someone else on the panel, please share that.
[00:42:03] Stacy Havener: And please lean in and please, let's have healthy debate. Because as people, we're not contrary to what, you know, they say, we don't actually wanna get into an argument or a debate or have another, we sort of want it to be all rainbows and unicorns and we're all on the same page, but that's not that interesting for the people receiving the information.
[00:42:23] Stacy Havener: So it's almost like we need to give everyone permission. To have fun, to have a different point of view.
[00:42:30] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, that is a really good point actually. Yeah. I think establishing that as the kind of the whole aim of the panel and the moderator doing a little bit of work to try and uncover what are the questions?
[00:42:39] Dan Mikulskis: Yes. Where there are gonna be differentiated points of view here. Yes. I, I think is, is in a key one, um, but actually made me think of a couple other sort of structural issues there. Right? So some individuals just won't feel totally empowered, um, because of their nature of their employer, their sort of role within that, right?
[00:42:55] Dan Mikulskis: They, they just won't feel empowered to totally say, say their own, uh, viewpoints, which is [00:43:00] a shame. But that, that is, that is how it is sometimes. But that, that can also be a little bit affected by the way the conference organizer sets things up. Whether the conference organizer, for example, has media there or not, I think does, it does make a difference there.
[00:43:13] Dan Mikulskis: I'm a bit torn on that actually. I get why organizers want that. I probably don't like it. Overall, I would say, I think you won't get quite as honest takes, but unfortunately the, the standard in our industry is. To kind of basically just duck the big debates. Um, you know, there's so many conferences you go to where you can just tell there's a real debate that ought to be happening there and it's just not.
[00:43:36] Mm-hmm. Um,
[00:43:37] Dan Mikulskis: and it is hard to create the right space and, you know, I think people maybe they worry unnecessarily that most conference attendees are not gonna suddenly go and tweet out, oh, so and so said this sort of thing. So I, I think that the spaces are generally probably slightly safer than what, what people think.
[00:43:54] Dan Mikulskis: Yes. But it's true that people in the industry tend to play it very safe and prob [00:44:00] generally duck the kind of, you know, the really big debates that ought to be had. So you do end up with these kind of slightly more sterile conversations. Um, and I dunno, I, I guess it's on all of us a little bit to kind of break that down.
[00:44:12] Dan Mikulskis: IE it's on the organizers try and create safe space. Yes. Not, not have it on the record with media, it's on the moderator to try and state that as the aim of the panel. We can, we can do that. Probably choose. Safe ish ground for it. So not like really existential debates and then the panelists to try and actually, you know, step up a little bit and kind of be really honest about, about what they think and, and be prepared to sort of challenge and, and be challenged a little bit on it.
[00:44:34] Dan Mikulskis: Just to kind of, you know, unearth what, what those sort of things are.
[00:44:38] Stacy Havener: Agreed. I don't think media helps this dynamic at all. If anything, it adds a whole nother layer of complexity, which I wanna go back to something you said earlier about 0.2, I think about being resonant and memorable and I, I love that.
[00:44:56] Stacy Havener: I think it's very challenging to do, just as you said, in [00:45:00] business, in life, in all the things. And because I love stories, I have to take this moment to give a, a high five Yeah. Uh, to storytelling in general, because that is what people will remember,
[00:45:11] right? For sure. So they're
[00:45:12] Stacy Havener: probably not gonna remember the stat, maybe, but one of the ways that you can.
[00:45:19] Stacy Havener: Be more memorable is share your point of view. You can then share a stat if you want, but really what you wanna make sure you do is tell a story to bring that point of view to life. That is what people will remember. That is also very difficult to replicate. So when you talk about things like, you know, being different or having a different point of view, it's not just that you need to have maybe a contrarian point of view to what else is being said.
[00:45:48] Stacy Havener: A story is gonna be unique by its nature, and therefore has a higher probability of being memorable.
[00:45:57] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great shout. You're absolutely right. There's, it's the stories [00:46:00] you want to go for there in that, in that, in that piece to try and make it sort of memorable and, and yeah, I guess as a panelist you've gotta just gotta do the work to un unearth a little mini story.
[00:46:07] Dan Mikulskis: It's just a small thing, isn't it? But it's, it's, it's a bit of work and it's obviously, I've heard you say this many times, it's very different to the pitch or trying to sort of,
[00:46:15] oh,
[00:46:15] Dan Mikulskis: um, you know, your, your standard pitch book type talking points. It's, it's just different, isn't it?
[00:46:20] Stacy Havener: And I think there's a lot we can learn about quote, pitching from this conversation, to be honest, because the foundational elements are not that different.
[00:46:31] Stacy Havener: You know, you're speaking to a different sized audience, which has its own nuances for sure. But a lot of the foundational sort of simple principles that you talked about in your framework apply to any meeting. Meetings are awkward. They just are. And somebody has to shake the scaries out of the situation, um, and knock that level down true in a pitch just as much as it is in a panel.
[00:46:56] Stacy Havener: Very
[00:46:57] Dan Mikulskis: good point. Yep.
[00:46:58] Stacy Havener: Oh, I had one other thought [00:47:00] as you were talking to build on the framework, and this is really something I've had to work on. I'm a pretty happy person, so I smile a lot. But a smile is super underestimated on a panel.
[00:47:14] Dan Mikulskis: That's right. Yeah.
[00:47:15] Stacy Havener: Isn't it? Yeah. Because as you're, I'm an intense listener, so when I'm listening I can look very like my eyes are staring through you.
[00:47:25] Stacy Havener: I have had to work on that as I've been on video more to actually force myself to smile. Now, I'm not suggesting you do it in an inauthentic way, it's just to be aware of what your physical presence is in addition to what your sort of, you know, intellectual presence is, especially when other people are talking.
[00:47:47] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah.
[00:47:48] Stacy Havener: If you see pictures of panels, it's like,
[00:47:50] Dan Mikulskis: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well I've, I've seen, I've seen so many pictures of myself on panels exactly like that with the kind of, really kind of grumpy face, you know, what do they call it? Resting bitch [00:48:00] face or whatever. Yeah. No, and, and I, I even know that, and I'm sat there most of the time without thought in my head, like, smile, smile, smile.
[00:48:06] Dan Mikulskis: Yes. Like, don't, don't be that guy who sat there looking all grumpy when someone else is talking. But it's quite hard. But, um, yeah, that, yeah, there is a little body language stuff as well, like turning to the person kind of, yeah. Interacting a little bit that, that can just sort of lift the whole thing as well.
[00:48:18] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, you're right.
[00:48:19] Stacy Havener: And so smile more than you think, think, smile, smile more than you th like exactly. To, to the point where you're like, I'm probably smiling too much. And, and still you won't be smiling enough. Um, I wanna take that actually into how you prepare for a panel. And this is gonna be a silly question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway 'cause it's one of my favorite questions I'm asked, which is, what do you wear?
[00:48:43] Stacy Havener: Like how do we, how, I mean like it's silly but real because again, if you think about pictures of panels of pan or panels you've been on, it's like everyone's out of central casting for the role of investment professional. So how do you prepare and how do you think about that? [00:49:00]
[00:49:00] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, I mean, you asking me for advice I wanna wear is great.
[00:49:03] Dan Mikulskis: Um, yeah, I mean, look, I probably, uh, I probably run a little bit casual, uh, generally in terms of my business sort of attire. I, I guess, yeah, look, you, you don't want to wear something that's radically different to what you would normally wear. 'cause actually, I think you've gotta be comfortable is a very good starting point.
[00:49:17] Dan Mikulskis: Great
[00:49:18] Stacy Havener: point.
[00:49:18] Dan Mikulskis: Um, you don't wanna be sat there feeling uncomfortable and sometimes you do see people with the tie, you know, right. Ah, around the neck and you think God, like, you know, youn a little better and it might, might be better. So, you know, I, I think yeah, you have, you have gotta sort of be true to your normal style if you like.
[00:49:33] Dan Mikulskis: And I probably tend to go a little bit more, um, more casual, but yeah. You know, I, I love an opportunity to throw the white sneakers on or whatever. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, jazz it up a little bit with a bit of a, you know, different color, color blazer or whatever. Because you're right. You know, um, there's a lot of central casting stuff there.
[00:49:48] Dan Mikulskis: There's a lot of manels of like, you know, the five blokes in suits and white shirts kind of thing. It's, it's just, ugh.
[00:49:53] Stacy Havener: Oh God. I'm so glad you said Mannel. We almost went through this entire conversation without touching on this. [00:50:00] So, and we can, we'll, we'll sort of force it under the preparation. So can you talk about your policy on Mannel?
[00:50:06] Stacy Havener: Mean, well, first of all, define, say what you said, 'cause you said it so quickly. Definition of a manel.
[00:50:11] Dan Mikulskis: Well, a a manel is a panel entirely composed of men, which kind of used to be, you know, unfortunately probably the, the norm and probably shouldn't be, and is rarer now than it used to be. I think, uh, which is a, is a good thing.
[00:50:23] Dan Mikulskis: You know, my sort of policy is I don't support mans and I, I don't, I don't wanna be on, um, on mans. And I, I do try and make that that clear when I'm chatting to, to organizers. I, I get that it's difficult because organizers yeah, are trying to juggle a lot of different people, uh, for the panel and they can't necessarily promise who's gonna be there.
[00:50:39] Dan Mikulskis: But I think, um, as an organizer, having an awareness of that at least, and a strong intention that you're gonna yeah, have a bit of diversity on the panel, um, is pretty important. As I say, um, certainly conferences in the UK generally have got a lot better at that, most of the time, I'd say. Mm-hmm. You know, not, not always so much in other places I've been, and there've been some conferences in particular where, um, it's been particularly.[00:51:00]
[00:51:00] Dan Mikulskis: Obvious. And sometimes again, actually it's the pay to play ones that full fall of that. Oh yeah. It's when they really shouldn't, because I think if you're a manager, again, you're paying big money to be on the panel. You know, I, I wouldn't wanna be paying that sort of money then be on a analyst and it looks bad.
[00:51:14] Dan Mikulskis: Um, yeah. It's just, it's just a bad look. Honestly, when I, I see those photos on LinkedIn and it's like, you know, five blokes sat there, you're just like, oh, really? Yeah. So I, I just think everyone could do it all better in those situations, if I'm honest. And, um, recognize that that's not what you, that's not what you want.
[00:51:30] Dan Mikulskis: And, um, work a little bit harder to, to sort of get beyond it.
[00:51:34] Stacy Havener: The intention is something that is really shining through in this conversation to me, because everybody involved in the ecosystem of this event needs to have intention around it. And if I'm an asset manager, I'm sitting here as thinking as you were just talking.
[00:51:51] Stacy Havener: If I'm an asset manager, I'm writing some big, huge check to put somebody up on a stage, I am gonna have a lot of intention. [00:52:00] That that's gonna go well, who it is? Are they trained? What are we talking about? How are they practicing? Do they have the support they need to show up and crush it? And I feel like so often it's just like, yeah, you know, we paid the per this, this person's doing it, whatever.
[00:52:15] Stacy Havener: What a waste.
[00:52:17] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. Yeah. That exactly. And, and um, yeah, they should be after their ROI shouldn't they, they'd be looking for their, uh, yeah, return on it and have all the incentive, but often, often they sort of don't, look, I'm, I'm, I'm worried that we're in danger of scaring everyone off panels here. 'cause we're kind of, yeah, we gotta, let's going on and on about how hard it's to do it right.
[00:52:31] Dan Mikulskis: And all these things that people have to do. I guess
[00:52:33] Stacy Havener: let's end on an uplifting note,
[00:52:34] Dan Mikulskis: but the uplifting note, like you were saying, how to prepare for it. I, I think there's a, a sort of pitching coach I've worked with a bit in the past over here has this great phrase, which is do more than none kind of thing.
[00:52:44] Dan Mikulskis: And he's often talking about preparation. Yeah. So how much preparation should you do? More than none, I think, yeah. Is is always a good start, right? So, and if, if all you're doing is spending some time on thinking about those first two things I mentioned, so something's can make people laugh a little bit, however lane it is.
[00:52:57] Dan Mikulskis: And two, something that you, it's gonna be remembered. You can [00:53:00] just try and get those right in your head. And sometimes that might literally for me, you know, when I'm walking there, when I get up in the morning, you know, like when you're in the shower in the morning beforehand, you're just trying to think through those two things.
[00:53:09] Dan Mikulskis: And obviously the more panels you do, the easier it gets. 'cause you can sort of rely on replays of old, old tricks and stuff. So I think, you know, getting those two things right is, you know, pretty good start as a panelist in terms of how you're prepping for it and actually gets you really far. Because a lot of the times people just show up and it, that's it.
[00:53:23] Dan Mikulskis: Yes. Um, but yeah, the more than none approach to to preparation would be my, um, would be my suggestion
[00:53:29] Stacy Havener: more than none is a great mantra. I wanna also spend a moment on, again, we're uplifting now, no more arsenic. Um, the good things that come from being on a panel. So you've been on a lot of panels, like what has come out of that for you, besides the obvious of like sharing your knowledge and giving back and supporting the organizer and hopefully inspiring or educating, you know, the audience.
[00:53:58] Stacy Havener: Those are all, let's say that [00:54:00] those are table stakes, but as a panelist, what are some of the positive things that have come out of those experiences for you?
[00:54:07] Dan Mikulskis: Um, if I think about some of the better ones, sometimes there's just a really nice vibe. You sort of connect with people a little bit. Yeah. You know, sometimes you might, there might be a ton of people coming up to you afterwards saying, oh, that was really good there.
[00:54:18] Dan Mikulskis: Mm-hmm. There might be people who, you know, create a LinkedIn post out of it and, um, you know, put that on LinkedIn and say, oh yeah, this was really interesting and so and so, so said this. So and so said that sort of thing. And this was a debate. So yeah, there, there's certain times where you just, you know, you just kind of feel it and a nice moment, um, because of the conversation, what's being shared, the people that are there.
[00:54:36] Dan Mikulskis: Um, yeah. And that, that's kind of probably why I do it. Really. I, I, I do enjoy it when you, when you get those kind of nice ill moments. Um, but for me, I kind of, I, I see it as an opportunity to kind of work on some of those messages that I'm kind of, yeah. That, that I'm thinking about all the time and trying to refine them a little bit.
[00:54:51] Dan Mikulskis: And, um. Express them slightly better and like each time you get slightly better at expressing it, you get a sense of what's resonated with the audience and what is kind of memorable and what people [00:55:00] wanna take away where you have a differentiated perspective. All, all those sort of things. But yeah, the better ones.
[00:55:05] Dan Mikulskis: You know, if you a good panel, you really connect with the other panelists. It's really nice. And it can be the start of, not say a friendship or something, but you know, it can be the start of a kind of a meaningful connection with people that, you know, might live the other side of the world. And you might not sort of see you very often, but it, it can be quite, um, meaningful actually.
[00:55:22] Stacy Havener: It's so again, underrated. People do business with people and that's not just like, you know, from a client perspective, it's also just the network effect perspective. I've been on panels where I've done multiple collaborations with the groups afterwards. In fact, what that workshop I did in Chicago recently to teach about storytelling and LinkedIn, that came because I was on a panel with the person who worked at that company, right?
[00:55:48] Stacy Havener: So there's just so many things that you sort of, again, to your point, you can't script it. You don't really know. But again, the intentionality and just the, the constituents in the whole network of people who are part of this [00:56:00] experience, um, everybody matters in that. Should be approached intentionally. So this has been great.
[00:56:05] Stacy Havener: Any final words of advice on panels? I think we've hit it all.
[00:56:10] Dan Mikulskis: We've hit it all. You're right about intentionality goes through all of it. Just being intentional. Yeah. Uh, from the organizer, the moderator, the panelists all have their roles to play in thinking through the little bits they can do. But yes, overall, let's say, let's not overthink it.
[00:56:22] Dan Mikulskis: Um, you don't have to sort of have a PhD in panels to make this work. It doesn't have to be s of preparation. I, I think there's little basics that can be done that can make it an awful lot better than what it's been. And I think panels can be a great format. They ought to be a really great format. I think, as I said before, the instinct a lot of the time is to write one, which is that they're better than just a whole load of keynotes.
[00:56:41] Dan Mikulskis: It's the execution that needs a little bit of thought and a little bit of preparation, but, um, hey, they can be great.
[00:56:46] Stacy Havener: Are you open to being, I mean, if everybody listens to this is like, I want Dan on my panel, should they send you an email?
[00:56:52] Dan Mikulskis: Sure. Look, I, I'm in the very fortunate position. I, I get a lot of invites to events.
[00:56:56] Dan Mikulskis: I, I really do. I would love to do them all. The reality is I can't do them all. But, [00:57:00] um, hey, sure. It's always nice to be invited and for people to, to think of me.
[00:57:03] Stacy Havener: That's great. Okay, so the first time you were here, I had some questions at the end that were in Prost inspired questions and I've had to update them 'cause this is my first reunion tour.
[00:57:14] Stacy Havener: So I have four quick questions for you.
[00:57:16] Dan Mikulskis: Okay. Go on.
[00:57:18] Stacy Havener: Are you ready?
[00:57:18] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, go on.
[00:57:19] Stacy Havener: I'm gonna start with an easy one kind of. What book or podcast? 'cause I know you listen to a lot of podcasts has inspired you recently and it can be work related if you want. It can also be non-work related or you can do one of each.
[00:57:33] Dan Mikulskis: Um, I'll do one of each, uh, super quick. So, um, yeah, I do this to a ton of podcasts. Probably consuming more of that than any other format. Um, there's a pretty good one. It's called the Don't Get Fired Podcast by the Stanford Long-Term Investing Institute. It's slightly random title, but that they intend to interview.
[00:57:47] Dan Mikulskis: Um, often asset owners, people who run pension schemes and stuff. They interviewed a guy called Mark Steed from P-S-P-R-S, which is a public retirement scheme in the us and it was really interesting conversation about how he set up his team and particular how he [00:58:00] set his team. The challenge of trying to make predictions in advance and give confidence levels in advance and then assess them later on in a really kind of interesting detailed view of how you can try and build a.
[00:58:10] Dan Mikulskis: A team process and also a really coherent process around assessing confidence levels and predictions. Trying to assess who's the better predictors, you know, where people make good predictions, where people don't make good predictions. Nice episode to.
[00:58:25] Stacy Havener: Fantastic. What was that one called again?
[00:58:27] Dan Mikulskis: It was the Don't Get Fired.
[00:58:28] Dan Mikulskis: Don't Get Fired podcast. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:58:30] Stacy Havener: Okay. Okay. Any others? Moving to the next,
[00:58:34] Dan Mikulskis: uh, well on the non-business one, yeah, I mean, I, I haven't honestly been reading as many books as I normally would at, at this point. We've got, um, we've got a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old at home. Two, two Young Boys, which is obviously wonderful in, in so many ways, but doesn't quite afford me the time to read as many books at this point anyway.
[00:58:48] Dan Mikulskis: But anyway. Well, one book I have enjoyed recently, there was a book called Y 2K by Colette Shade, and it's kind of, I think you'd like it actually. It's kind of a meditation on that period of time, around the year two thousands. Ah, [00:59:00] um, the kind of, um, the whole vibe of the nineties reflecting on the nineties into the two thousands, how that whole vibe changed a lot, obviously in the years since then.
[00:59:09] Dan Mikulskis: You know, what were the kind of geopolitical, geo-economic factors that kind of led to the two thousands as an era. Um, and it talks a lot about the aesthetic, the Y 2K aesthetic as being kind of, sort of emblematic of. A lot of the kind of positivity that existed in the nineties and, and has, has kind of, um, ah, you know, changed a little bit since then, shall we say.
[00:59:28] Dan Mikulskis: So it was a book with quite a simple premise, which, um, went down all sorts of, um, and lots of pop culture references and stuff from the two thousands. Oh, I love that. And connecting a lot of dots. So maybe I didn't find it inspiring as such, but it was very thought provoking in terms of Yeah. As sort of commentary on, um, pop cultural phenomenon that I've seen over my lifetime, obviously.
[00:59:46] Dan Mikulskis: Right. Yeah. So, so it's, um, little bit of nostalgia, obviously weaved in as well and some of the things. So perfect comment
[00:59:52] Stacy Havener: right up my alley. I will be getting that reading en route to London and perhaps, okay, next question. [01:00:00] Really excited about this one. I dunno why. Okay. What word or phrase do you most overuse?
[01:00:07] Dan Mikulskis: Oh, that's a difficult one. Um, so I actually, I, I misread the notes. I thought it was, what do I find is generally most overused?
[01:00:13] Stacy Havener: Oh, well you could do that. So share that one.
[01:00:16] Dan Mikulskis: Well, I was gonna say something about uncertainty. It's very trendy as so, oh, you know, uncertainty is very high at the moment as if you should react to it in some way and do X, y, or Z because uncertainty is high.
[01:00:25] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. But uncertainty is always high.
[01:00:25] Stacy Havener: All right, next question. What was your first job and a life lesson learned?
[01:00:31] Dan Mikulskis: So my first job, I was an investment consultant at Mercer. Now,
[01:00:34] Stacy Havener: not that job. I'm not letting you do that one.
[01:00:36] Dan Mikulskis: Oh, not that one. Oh, sorry. You mean first first job ever? My, I'm talking. Oh, good way back
[01:00:41] Stacy Havener: machine.
[01:00:42] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[01:00:42] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. Um, oh, I was a lifeguard.
[01:00:44] Stacy Havener: I had feeling you were gonna say that. Yeah. This is fantastic. Okay. You were a lifeguard.
[01:00:50] Dan Mikulskis: Um, no, that's such pretty cool. I'd say as a first job, I was probably, yeah. 17 or something. Um, yeah, I mean, it's quite long hours. It can be a little [01:01:00] boring, but you need to try and stay focused and try and, you know, find a way to sort of pass the time and over long periods of time when you do have a decent amount of responsibility as a, as a young person, I guess.
[01:01:10] Dan Mikulskis: Uh, hi.
[01:01:13] Stacy Havener: At 17 seems like a lot.
[01:01:16] Dan Mikulskis: Um, so yeah, uh, it was lifeguarding and what, what was the life lesson I suppose? I think I, yeah, I actually was that probably maybe a slightly deep one around just being able to sort of connect with kind of different people. I mean, I, I was, um, doing it for a couple of years while I was studying, before going off to uni, but there were people I was working with for whom that was sort of their job.
[01:01:36] Dan Mikulskis: They were in their thirties and forties and that they were just on a different path to to, to it, to what I was on. And so I, I think, um, yeah, being able to sort of relate and, and chat to them, find common ground and pass the time and create a little bit of a team atmosphere when we were on, um, clearly on quite different life paths was, was maybe, maybe the, maybe the life lesson there.
[01:01:54] Stacy Havener: That is awesome. I have to connect you with my friend Rob Morrie, who [01:02:00] is an investment industry person, but he is also a professor at Drexel right here in the States. He is actually doing a huge study about lifeguarding as how it helps in your career.
[01:02:14] Oh, wow.
[01:02:15] Stacy Havener: Yeah. So I'm gonna connect you guys. Yes. All right.
[01:02:18] Stacy Havener: Last question, and it kind of is the counterpoint to the one you just answered. So we did your first job, a life lesson learned. Given your experience now, what's something you would tell your younger self?
[01:02:32] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, I, um, I sort of asked this a little bit recently. I'm always, Tom's seen a few different answers here.
[01:02:36] Dan Mikulskis: One of them, I think probably the main one actually is. That I, I think taking the time in your twenties and even your, your thirties to just to do different things and enjoy them, different jobs, I mean, do and even, you know, where you're living and stuff and just enjoy it for what it is at the time without feeling the need to have some overarching plan of where it's all going.
[01:02:53] Dan Mikulskis: And I, and I don't want to be as kind of tri as saying, oh, relax. 'cause it'll all work out. Right. I think that is a little bit, um, [01:03:00] naive, maybe a little bit too, let's say fair. But I, I think just having this sense of accumulating different experiences is really valuable for what it is. Certainly three or twenties even, you know, well into your thirties.
[01:03:09] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah. And yeah, after that you probably do need to start to arrive at a bit of an overarching kind of view of things. But I think it can be, it's, it's often the opposite that's pushed, I think as a, as a framework, as in try and form a view super early on where you want to go and just be extremely focused on that.
[01:03:25] Dan Mikulskis: And there's a little, sort of a, a, an additional to that, to that point, it's kind of make the most of each phase or chapter of your, your life or your career for what it is, because I, I do think there are lessons to be taken out of every role, every part of your career. That's certainly been the case for me.
[01:03:39] Dan Mikulskis: And even if there're parts that might not feel like you were going the right direction at the time, or you felt maybe you were in the wrong organization, in the wrong role, there are always little lessons because mm-hmm. You're always in a particular situation that's, that's quite unique. I mean, for example, maybe.
[01:03:53] Dan Mikulskis: You know, you, you might be working for a small company, you might be working for a small team in a big company. You might be working for an overseas company [01:04:00] where you are in a, a sort of an outpost of their empire. You might be working for a founder, you might be working for a particular tricky boss.
[01:04:06] Dan Mikulskis: Those can, you know, they might be nightmare situations, but that those are really valuable skills to learn in terms of how to work in a small team, in a big team, in a big company, in an overseas company, in an American company, in a UK company. For a founder, for a sort of a, a career boss, for someone who's new in the right.
[01:04:22] Dan Mikulskis: You know, to be able to take away those skills, I think has, uh, served me pretty well in terms of the different chapters and kind of just building that up over time. Whereas I think often people are just, can be a little focused on what's the next thing? Where am I going? What's the aim? Um, and so my sort of counterpoint to that would be, hey, you know, take the time to get everything you can out of each stage.
[01:04:43] Dan Mikulskis: Learn your craft in each sort of stage, uh, because there are always valuable lessons that can be sort of accrued even if you feel it's not necessarily the perfect thing for you. Uh.
[01:04:52] Stacy Havener: Thank you for sharing that. It all makes sense in hindsight, but when you're in it, sometimes it doesn't. And being okay with that.[01:05:00]
[01:05:00] Stacy Havener: I don't wanna say uncertainty 'cause you just banned it. Hang
[01:05:03] Dan Mikulskis: on.
[01:05:03] Stacy Havener: But whatever. It's your alternate word.
[01:05:07] Dan Mikulskis: Yeah, I think I, I think that is it. I think it is what I'm m saying actually, and that you sort of look back at your story and it, and it does kind of make sense in hindsight and all, all the little bits that might've seemed difficult or or tricky at the time make sense in, in kind of the whole, and, and you know, if you can take things out of it and, and move on, then that's a really useful thing to do.
[01:05:24] Dan Mikulskis: And, and often that is, that is the whole thing, rather than having this overarching, unrealistic kind of plan of where everything needs to go and what exactly where you need to be at at each point in time.
[01:05:34] Stacy Havener: Well, and I think your journey captures a lot of that. So thank you for coming back to the podcast and sharing your story and your advice on panels with us.
[01:05:45] Stacy Havener: I can highly recommend following Dan on LinkedIn and signing up for his newsletter. Um, it's a joy to have you with us, Dan. Thank you,
[01:05:54] Dan Mikulskis: Stacey. Thanks so much. It's been absolutely wonderful. Really enjoyed talking to you. Thanks again.
[01:05:58] Stacy Havener: This podcast is for [01:06:00] informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions.
[01:06:04] Stacy Havener: The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products, or to adopt any investment strategy. Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance. All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm.
[01:06:24] Stacy Havener: Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Haven or Haven, or Capital Partners.
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