Episode 110: Rewind | Ex-ING $20B Bond Mgr to 500k Macro Research Followers to New Macro HedgeFund, Meet Palinuro Capital Founder / CIO Alfonso Peccatiello

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Alfonso Peccatiello built a following of 500,000 on LinkedIn by doing something radical – by being a real, authentic human in the fund world.

And that authentic social presence helped him close investment deals for his new hedge fund, Palinuro Capital. 

Alfonso’s story is proof that it pays to challenge the status quo and to put people (and connections) first – even in a numbers-obsessed industry. 

Want the full story? Join Alfonso and Stacy as they discuss: 

• Alfonso’s backstory: How a car accident sparked his obsession with creating success on his own terms 

• Why he’s never afraid to repel the wrong investor 

• How his willingness to repel, both on social media and in meetings, has helped him attract more of the right investors 

• The lesson he learned as a $20B bond manager that has served him most as an entrepreneur (spoiler alert, it wasn’t an investing technique) 

More About Alfonso Peccatiello

Alfonso (Alf) Peccatiello is the CIO of the global macro hedge fund Palinuro Capital. Alf was born in Southern Italy, roughly 1,000 km away from the closest financial center, yet his dream was to run his own hedge fund. To get there, he had an idea: share macro analysis and frameworks with the world through his research firm, The Macro Compass, first, establish relationships, and only after spinning out his macro hedge fund. After scoring the largest asset managers in the world as clients of his research, here we are: his global macro hedge fund, Palinuro Capital, is ready to launch in January 2025. As a proper Southern Italian, Alf stands by three culinary rules: no cappuccino unless it's breakfast, no pineapple on pizza, and never break pasta in pieces!


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TRANSCRIPT

Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors.

B$B 110 Transcript

[00:00:00] Stacy Havener : Most interviews with my next guest, focus on big macro ideas, his thoughts on this or that top-down phenomena or unpacking his insightful and refreshingly accessible research. If you know Alfonso Peca, macro af, you know what I mean? And if that's what you're after. You've come to the wrong place. I believe it's the people behind the portfolios who matter most.

[00:00:26] Stacy Havener : Alf is the founder of the Macro Compass, an institutional macro research platform. He's got 500,000 social media followers, some of the biggest names in the investment in hedge fund bizz, and he's launching a new macro hedge fund. He's the real deal. Today's conversation is a chance to meet Alf, the real.

[00:00:48] Stacy Havener : Person. If you are wowed by what he does and how he thinks, just wait till you get a sense of who he is and the why that motivates him. Normally I say [00:01:00] grab your popcorn today. I'm saying grab your pizza and make it nano. Meet my friend. Hey, my name is Stacey Er. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales.

[00:01:15] Stacy Havener : Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the Toughest Boys Club, wall Street. I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow-on assets for investment boutiques, you could say, against the ads. Yeah, understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes.

[00:01:39] Stacy Havener : It's real talk here, money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college mixed with happy hour. Pull up a seat, grab your notebook, and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. [00:02:00] This is the Billion dollar Backstory podcast.

[00:02:08] Stacy Havener : Alf, thank you so much for being here. This is a joy for me because we are new friends and so I feel like all the listeners of the podcast get to be a fly on the wall of two new friends having a conversation. I'm psyched for that.

[00:02:22] Alfonso Peccatiello: Well, thanks for having me, Stacy. This is a new friendship, but it's an old time listenership for me.

[00:02:29] Alfonso Peccatiello: I listen to basically every episode of yours, so. Quite interesting to be on the other side of the seat.

[00:02:33] Stacy Havener : Oh, what an honor. Okay, so then, you know, we always start with my favorite thing, which is the backstory. So my question is, you grew up in Italy, did you grow up from a long line of Italian macro economic researchers, or what was the journey?

[00:02:56] Alfonso Peccatiello: Okay, so in the place where I was born. Lemme take a step back. So [00:03:00] when you say Italy, it's not a gigantic countries, but the reality is that people feel very different between the north and the south.

[00:03:08] Stacy Havener : Yes. So

[00:03:08] Alfonso Peccatiello: I was born in the south of Italy, close to the Amalfi Coast or Naples, to give people some reference, yet not on the fancy part of the Amalfi Coast, but more in the inside part.

[00:03:19] Alfonso Peccatiello: This place is the farthest thing away you can think of to a hedge fund industry or a financial industry. To give you some facts, the closest hedge fund or the closest large bank, yeah, is about a thousand kilometers away. So like 600 miles or so I guess in America. Oh my gosh. So it's quite far. So it's definitely not a financial center.

[00:03:39] Alfonso Peccatiello: Definitely not the family of macro economist or something. In the place where I come from, most people work still either in tourism or services, or even in agriculture. It's a very cultural based place. A lot of tomatoes and mozzarella and so on and so forth. Now, long story short, I decided that I had a knock and curiosity about [00:04:00] finance because the problem was always that.

[00:04:03] Alfonso Peccatiello: You see these ads in television and you read some books and some friends are in finance and it seems to be quite a puzzle. I mean, especially macro, which is not a small problem. It's a gigantic puzzle and you're trying to assemble the pieces and connecting the dots, and my brain was always attracted to this idea.

[00:04:19] Alfonso Peccatiello: You know, there is this puzzle apparently almost no one can solve. Macro is very hard to, you know, I challenge people to always go and find macro hedge funds that have like a 20 year track record. You won't find many, basically because they don't survive. It's a very, very hard thing to pull off. And so for me, this is naturally attractive.

[00:04:37] Alfonso Peccatiello: I thought, you know, let's go into it. Let's see if I can add some value to this puzzle solving issue. And then I decided to go to university and study it. I soon realized the Italian financial industry wasn't gonna be the place where this, this ecosystem could help me, you know, solve the problem or, or in the journey to solve it.

[00:04:55] Alfonso Peccatiello: So I studied in English, which is something that sounds normal, but in Italy it's not really the [00:05:00] case. Yeah. It's one of the places in the world where I think there is the least amount of people able to speak fluent English still today, which is a handicap. Italians are smart. Not speaking English doesn't help.

[00:05:10] Alfonso Peccatiello: Mm-hmm. And so I then moved abroad, started in Germany and started working my, basically started my career in a northern European bank. It's a Dutch based bank, so it's a bank based in the Netherlands, but it has offices around all around Europe and even in the US it's a global bank. So that's where I got started in finance back in 2014, I think right now.

[00:05:32] Alfonso Peccatiello: 10 years, I would say in the industry. I'm, uh, 33 years old. People can't see me. I'm bold. I look older, but still 33,

[00:05:40] Stacy Havener : so That's amazing. So let's stay with this for a second. So you get this job at this Dutch bank, and are you doing macro research? Like what specifically? Or did it evolve?

[00:05:52] Alfonso Peccatiello: Yeah, so I started as a macro analysts.

[00:05:54] Alfonso Peccatiello: Mm-hmm. They were in a situation where regulation had imposed on them and on all other banks [00:06:00] actually to have very large bond portfolios. This was the byproduct of the 2008, 2009 crisis where many banks were found themselves having. Liquid assets on their balance sheet, and a lot of people were coming out to get their money out, so they had a lot of deposit outflows, but they didn't really have liquid assets enough to quickly service this deposit outflows.

[00:06:21] Alfonso Peccatiello: And so the regulator said, gotta fix that. And now we fixed that is we basically forced banks to own more liquid assets. And liquid assets for the regulator meant mostly government bonds or liquid bonds. And so banks all of a sudden had to build these huge bond portfolios and they needed some macro framework to do so.

[00:06:40] Alfonso Peccatiello: Right. So they needed like. Top down and bottom up analysis. And so they hired me as one of the macro analysts in the team there. And then the year after I was running money as well as a portfolio manager. So then the job became, well, you are the macro analysts of reference, but you're also running money.

[00:06:55] Alfonso Peccatiello: As a portfolio manager in a group of portfolio managers, and that's when you start meeting your [00:07:00] mentors, which are incredibly important, I would say, in the development of a career of any risk taker or portfolio manager, because when you start taking risks, who sits close to you, who's gonna basically have control over your risk parameters, and how much risk you take, is also the person who's gonna influence you the most on your framework, on your line of thinking and how you manage risks.

[00:07:20] Alfonso Peccatiello: How do you see the world and which lenses do you use? And it's really important to find the right mentor. And also it's a matter of luck, frankly, but it's very important.

[00:07:28] Stacy Havener : Yeah. So talk about your mentor because I agree with you. And also by the way, one of the hacks that I use to get people to talk about their backstory.

[00:07:38] Stacy Havener : 'cause not everybody's super comfortable, especially in this business to do that. But when you ask someone about their mentor, their entire, like even their face, everything changes for them because if you have a good mentor, to your point, it's a relationship that is just like above and beyond and it's a [00:08:00] great way to kind of get somebody talking.

[00:08:01] Stacy Havener : So talk about your mentor and kind of how that person inspired you even on some of the more entrepreneurial parts of your journey.

[00:08:09] Alfonso Peccatiello: So my mentor was somebody who took risks and traded for a prop desk in a Dutch bank in the nineties. And that's a different setup than today because that's before v's.

[00:08:21] Alfonso Peccatiello: Rules basically. So effectively banks could take prop risk and it was like trading at a hedge fund pretty much, but within a bank.

[00:08:28] Stacy Havener : Mm-hmm. So

[00:08:29] Alfonso Peccatiello: this is a person who has taken risk and has been paid. Also risk to be fired if his risk taking wasn't correct. So a proper trader. And so his mindset was extremely framework process and risk management based because he knew that he was basically raised knowing that if he would not follow his process, he would be fired.

[00:08:48] Stacy Havener : Mm-hmm. And

[00:08:49] Alfonso Peccatiello: so this is the type of mentorship that gets you very much to be process driven, framework driven, and risk management driven. I still remember the first day, or I think the first week when I was there. [00:09:00] And he said, so what's your top idea? And I said, okay, so I think we should go long, this and short that.

[00:09:06] Alfonso Peccatiello: He's like, okay, that's cool. So how much conviction do you have? I said, A lot of conviction. On a scale of one to five. Five, I said, okay. Now let's play a game. He said, this year you will mark down your conviction levels from one to five on every single trade you're gonna be putting, right? And so you tell me you size it, one, five, whatever.

[00:09:25] Alfonso Peccatiello: And then at the end of the year, we'll have a look at what that meant, because I'm not going to allow you to take more risk or less risk based on your conviction. I'm not gonna allow that because you just started and you shouldn't. So we're gonna use a standardized sizing system for each trades, like each trade's gonna be standardized the same way.

[00:09:42] Alfonso Peccatiello: But please mark down laterally your conviction levels, and at the end of the year, we're gonna check what happened. So we took my p and l at the end of the year, and then he said, okay, let's see what would've happened if you would've sized your trades higher, when you were more convinced or lower, when you were less convinced.

[00:09:59] Stacy Havener : Mm. And

[00:09:59] Alfonso Peccatiello: there were two [00:10:00] observations there. The first is that my skill of conviction always went between three and five. So you realize that you are very biased, right? Yes. You're never unconvinced about an idea of yours, which is already quite weird. And then the second thing you realize is that if you size according to conviction levels, my p and l in a risk adjusted sense had changed by zero.

[00:10:20] Alfonso Peccatiello: Literally zero. So conviction was gonna add or remove nothing from my p and l. And this was a great lesson because with a simple experiment, a mentor is able to show you what he learned over decades, which is, wow, look, this is a game where you're gonna be wrong 40% of the times, 50% of the times you're gonna be right 50% of the times.

[00:10:39] Alfonso Peccatiello: So your conviction really doesn't matter too much. What matters is to follow the process and have a very strong framework for risk management. And just be non-emotional about what goes on. And I think I was lucky finding a mentor like that.

[00:10:53] Stacy Havener : Yeah. And I wanna come back to that when we talk about sort of your new venture.

[00:10:57] Stacy Havener : But before we move on, [00:11:00] I'm curious. So I think that. Part of our sauce, or part of what makes us special is the exact thing that makes us maybe different and maybe a little bit like, oh, you know, embarrassed, let's say, or I don't know the exact quite word for it. So when you think about that statement and you think about that you came from Italy, from an area.

[00:11:24] Stacy Havener : Where finance is not the thing. Is that the thing that made you also kind of have a different perspective or, or what was that for you? Because I imagine you were thinking differently than some of your peers at the bank.

[00:11:41] Alfonso Peccatiello: I would say one of the interesting things is that I didn't have an education, which was the typical one that leads you to have a job in Wall Street or in, uh, London, for example.

[00:11:53] Alfonso Peccatiello: So nowadays you tend to get hired much more easily if you have started at an Ivy League place or at London School of Economics, and [00:12:00] I didn't have any of that. So it also, I think, brings a different perspective on, you know, what was your framework, where you studied and where did you grow up? Yeah, where did you grow up?

[00:12:08] Alfonso Peccatiello: Is very, very important. I think this is a very underestimated angle. So now at the fund that we're launching so far, we are three people, and it might be a coincidence or not, but we joked about our GDP per capita in the place where we were born and raised.

[00:12:26] Stacy Havener : Love that.

[00:12:27] Alfonso Peccatiello: So we had a look at it and it's a guy from Iran who's my partner, and he's a guy from Sicily, so even deeper in the south of Italy than I'm from.

[00:12:35] Alfonso Peccatiello: And then a guy from the south of Italy. We took a look and the average GDP per capita amongst us is something like $17,000 a year, one seven. That means that if you wanna compare it to an average wage, you're probably making like one and a half to 2000 gross a month before taxes. So try to think about that.

[00:12:54] Alfonso Peccatiello: Okay. Wow. Now that's the place where we grew up on average, and I [00:13:00] think that gives you a different perspective. Yes, it does. And it's not because we were poor or something, but it's because. The context you grew up in. Yeah. Had a completely different set of opportunities and any small opportunity you found you had to fight 110% to try and get that.

[00:13:16] Alfonso Peccatiello: And so I always think like, I don't have kids right now, but if I would have a kid, I would always think like. Do I want them to grow up with the best possible set of opportunities at hand, like everything is available, or do I want them to grow up in a place where they have to grind a bit to get something out?

[00:13:32] Alfonso Peccatiello: And so when you also join the finance industry, on average, you have people that are very hard and they fight hard and they're very motivated, but they may haven't necessarily gone through that. Set of opportunities being so limited when they grow up. Mm-hmm. That they have that inner grinding mentality.

[00:13:48] Alfonso Peccatiello: And now I'm not gonna say we never will hire somebody who grew up in Sweden because I mean, poor guy, what did he do wrong? Just grew up in Sweden. But it's that we find this interesting [00:14:00] commonality so far, which seems to be a bit of a diverse standpoint.

[00:14:04] Stacy Havener : So first of all, amazing. I loved your answer and I agree with so much of it.

[00:14:10] Stacy Havener : The kid thing, super real, super real. I think a lot of self-made or non-traditional path, successful people struggle with that exact, exact challenge. And it's interesting, and now I'm feeling bad for the Swedish guy that you're gonna hire someday, because I was gonna say that I actually love this as a differentiator for you.

[00:14:37] Stacy Havener : I love this as a differentiator for you because. When you ask people about differentiators of their firm, the founder will often say, oh, it's our people. And that can really easily tip into truism. Like of course everybody says that. Yeah. Okay. But like, show me what do you mean? And you actually can show.[00:15:00]

[00:15:00] Alfonso Peccatiello: Yes, so far, uh, if the guy Sweden gets hired, they'll excuse the median. So then

[00:15:05] Stacy Havener : you just gotta change your differentiators. You evolve. No, that's, you evolve them.

[00:15:08] Alfonso Peccatiello: That's fair enough. But it's more about really the mindset and

[00:15:12] Stacy Havener : That's right.

[00:15:12] Alfonso Peccatiello: I think the other thing that, this is a question I get a lot from allocators, like when they have to invest, especially as day one in a new fund.

[00:15:20] Alfonso Peccatiello: Man, you need to give them a reason to do so. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's, you have to think the other side has some sort of career risk attached to it. Not necessarily. Absolutely. If you do up, they're gonna get fired, but you know, they're taking a risk on you, so they need to be paid for that risk. And being paid, when you start a new fund, it's very hard to show somebody that it's your long-term track record, because of course, maybe your bank doesn't wanna disclose it, or it wasn't in the same setup as the hedge fund you're starting or.

[00:15:46] Alfonso Peccatiello: You don't own the track record or whatever is the problem. So you really need to give them qualitative risk premium, as I say. So somebody's doing due diligence on you. You're a day one fund. It's very hard to give them quantitative risk. Premium. So like a long-term [00:16:00] track record, you should give them strong qualitative reasons.

[00:16:03] Alfonso Peccatiello: Yes. Why it should be you. And so you get a lot of questions of course. Like what's your differentiator? I don't think that Millennium gets questions about what's differentiating millennium, but I get them. Okay, so I need to find an answer. Fact that we have people that are coming from this background tends to work.

[00:16:20] Alfonso Peccatiello: The other interesting thing is the approach that we have to this business, which is a little bit, uh, I would say out of consensus, a few reasons. So first of all, we're spinning this away from a research company mm-hmm. That I built, which is called the macro compass. So I've done research for the last two and a half years, shared it online as well, on Twitter, on LinkedIn, et cetera.

[00:16:39] Alfonso Peccatiello: So we've used a lot of social network to actually put up our framework and analysis. And now we have thousands of paying clients and the biggest hedge funds in the world are clients. It's all nice and you know, some of them decided to invest in the fund, right? But why am I mentioning the research?

[00:16:55] Alfonso Peccatiello: Because I see a lot of my peers when I go to conferences, which, and I understand them, [00:17:00] which are struggling with the fact that they need to raise assets now, like it's an urgency. It must be done. You have a target for day one and you cannot raise less than that or it's gonna look bad or whatever. Our approach is a little bit different, which is we want to grow the business over time with research, which means with providing value to our distribution list and to people who have shown interest in the fund.

[00:17:24] Alfonso Peccatiello: The idea is that these people need reasons to keep engaged with you and sending them some sort of monthly factory saying, my fund is up, that and my fund is down. That I'm not sure how much interesting that is. Sending them some good added value piece of research, which is, by the way, what we do anyway for the research, uh, company.

[00:17:44] Alfonso Peccatiello: I think it's a much better way to build the relationship over the long run. And so this is a bit of a different approach. Mm-hmm. That doesn't necessarily require squeezing all the a UM possible from day one, but it's a much more patient long-term approach based on providing value. So people [00:18:00] really like that research angle.

[00:18:01] Alfonso Peccatiello: Even if they don't allocate now, they might allocate in two years and we are okay with that. Then the other thing that I do very often, which, uh, my, not always my partner is happy about it, but that's okay. When we chat with someone, we always try to provide them reasons why they should not invest in us.

[00:18:18] Alfonso Peccatiello: So what I always say is, for example, if you think that I should have an office in London or in New York. Then I will not, this is not the reason why you should invest in us. We are in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam. We have an office over here. It's close to a beach because we like taking creative walks and that's who we are.

[00:18:37] Alfonso Peccatiello: And if you want me to wear a suit and a tie and have an office in London, then you should invest in someone else. And sometimes people tell me, you know, this is very unprofessional. Like, if this is your definition of professional, then that's fine. We disagree there. I'm aware that this might be detrimental from the short term perspective of running a fund and raising a UM, but what we are looking for is long [00:19:00] term relationships and that means that, you know, it's a bit of a, of a longer game, but we're trying to do it a little bit different, I guess, than the average fund.

[00:19:08] Alfonso Peccatiello: I'm not saying we do it better, we just try to do it a little bit different.

[00:19:12] Stacy Havener : Gosh, like just spike the mic on all of that because seriously, this is, okay, first of all, differentiator, you are taking a patient approach to raising assets. Also, not something that you hear a lot in this biz. To your point, and also note to all the people who don't have it, you're gonna get it anyway whether you like it or not, because it doesn't happen fast for anyone.

[00:19:37] Stacy Havener : But going back to your, your strategy of sort of really owning authentically who you are and what matters to you. I love, I love it. I love saying, here are all the reasons why you might not want to invest with us, because it's a massive attraction, repel. And if they gave you money, by the way, and you hadn't set [00:20:00] the stage for them of here's what we're about.

[00:20:03] Stacy Havener : As a people, as a team, as a company, then it's gonna come back around and bite you when they start saying, and by the way, like, where is the office in London? So you might as well just get it all like out all the cards on the table now. I think it's great. I love it. I would not change a thing because you can't really attract your ideal investor if you're not willing to repel the wrong ones.

[00:20:27] Alfonso Peccatiello: Yeah, so we're starting the process knowing that, let's call it the hit rate between an initial conversation and an allocation is going to be low. Mm-hmm. I think this is, anyway, the standard in the industry and the idea is that in our case, it's probably gonna be lower because people who end up allocating are gonna probably stick with us because we have been as transparent as we can.

[00:20:50] Alfonso Peccatiello: And we told them, you know, we, if you allocate to us, you should consider that the added value is also the fact that we want to provide. Research content and access to me or to the [00:21:00] team whenever you need it. So if you have, you know, there is macro volatility and the yen is blowing up or whatever is the situation.

[00:21:06] Alfonso Peccatiello: When you are a new manager, what happens is, in the best case scenario, you are getting allocated somewhere like 1% of the assets from the allocator. Best case scenario, if it's an emerging manager dedicated fund who has a mandate for day one or whatever. But in general, it's very small. Okay. Which means that.

[00:21:25] Alfonso Peccatiello: You cannot make a difference for their portfolio. Your role is to prove yourself so that they can scale you up to the point where maybe you can start making a difference. So our idea there is, look, if you start and invest with me, you're gonna put like 0.5% to 1% of your assets. Can I help you with some information that might also.

[00:21:45] Alfonso Peccatiello: Help you with remaining 99% of your portfolio. Hmm. So if you appreciate that, that might be a reason why you want to invest in the fund as well. And again, this is not a very typical approach. I always joke by saying that I am trying to [00:22:00] do a different modern version of Ray Dalio, not because I am Ray Dalio.

[00:22:03] Alfonso Peccatiello: I wouldn't try to make the comparison there, but because Ray Dalio. Didn't start with the fund, it started with the research company. So Bridgewater U was a research company, I think for five years between the early seventies and the mid seventies where he basically showed his framework and his research process to investors.

[00:22:21] Alfonso Peccatiello: And what happened five years later is that one investor said, wow, I really like this. Here is the, I would say in today's dollar inflation adjusted equivalent, the ticket was 30 million, 35 million. So that's how Bridgewater started. One client who followed the research of Dalio for five years gave him about 35 million to manage.

[00:22:39] Alfonso Peccatiello: So the process is that today. If you share good ideas, especially on platforms which are very professional, like LinkedIn, if you share good ideas and you show up consistently, that's how people get to know that you can add value to their process. And it's not only by showing up returns, which are incredibly important, but again, as a day one [00:23:00] allocator.

[00:23:01] Alfonso Peccatiello: Mm-hmm. That part matters. Way less. I think that people believe in their own set of valuations. If you're an allocator. You don't have a range of certainty around the risk reward I can deliver because I'm not live, I'm about to launch. So what we're trying to do is provide a broader value proposition.

[00:23:19] Stacy Havener : You know, it's interesting, I literally had this conversation with an allocator this morning, like before we jumped on this podcast about the sizing and how an initial, you know, sort of toe in the water position does not have any impact on a portfolio.

[00:23:35] Stacy Havener : It has none. And I was asking this allocator, tell me about that. Like how does that work and how do you determine who moves up? And one of the things they said, which was super honest. My point of view was I think salespeople typically miss this opportunity because to me, the metric that really matters in the building phase of an asset management business or a fund is not the dollars, it's the number of investors.[00:24:00]

[00:24:00] Stacy Havener : So when you get a new investor, that first dollar is the toughest dollar to get. However, if you execute on your promise, not that you knock the lights out, just you do what they expect you to do or overdeliver in. Some way doesn't have to be numbers. They will increase their allocation and those dollars are easier than the first.

[00:24:21] Stacy Havener : So the number of investors is a great predictor of total a U un later. And so the honest thing that this allocator said to me was. Again, people do business with people. He said after we meet with a manager, so we meet with our managers every six months and right after we meet with the manager, we are predisposed to add if that manager's doing well and we get to spend face time with them.

[00:24:48] Stacy Havener : Sort of the recency bias and the positive nature of that bias makes us want to allocate more. And I thought like. How just human nature of us [00:25:00] and how many salespeople or founders who are doing sales really think about asking for the business, like right after that meeting. It's so true. So I love that you're changing the framework.

[00:25:12] Stacy Havener : I love the Ray Dalio sort of model, and I have a question though.

[00:25:16] Go ahead.

[00:25:17] Stacy Havener : Okay. I did not know that that's how Bridgewater started, but I have seen other firms who were research firms try to make the leap from research to investments and really struggle because it's almost like their base knows them for research.

[00:25:35] Stacy Havener : Yeah. And the base can't quite figure out how is that research, especially macro like actually gonna play out into a portfolio. So how would you respond to that?

[00:25:45] Alfonso Peccatiello: Well, I think there are two things that work a bit in my favor in this case. One has to do with my background. I was the head of investments for this large Dutch bank, so I ran a $20 billion portfolio.

[00:25:58] Alfonso Peccatiello: People know that, [00:26:00] which means. They know that they've taken risks. That's a starting point. It's not pure research. It's former risk taker who has done research and now is taking risks again. Mm-hmm. So it's a bit of a different situation. And then the second part is we set up the research with the idea to launch a fund out of it, which meant the research was extremely applicable.

[00:26:19] Alfonso Peccatiello: Which meant it was as well a lot of trade ideas and model portfolios, which were shared transparently with subscribers every day, which meant every time I had a bad idea and I was stopped out, they could see it.

[00:26:32] So it was fully

[00:26:32] Alfonso Peccatiello: transparent. The portfolio construction process was in there as well. The sizing, the quantitative risk management, everything was in there for them to see and to judge, you know, this guy's doing this, do I like it?

[00:26:43] Alfonso Peccatiello: Don't I like it? Oh, he's getting stopped out. Okay, fine. He's losing money. And this level of, I think, transparency with people by sharing with them the framework that we would've used then ultimately to launch the fund and trade in the fund. I think it has helped a lot to get more familiar in the sense of, okay, this [00:27:00] person has a process.

[00:27:00] Alfonso Peccatiello: It's very clear he's sharing his ideas, he's getting stopped about, I'm right 53% of the times. Okay, so, which means I'm basically wrong very often. And by them seeing this, I think it has helped them understand, oh, the guy knows that he's wrong 50% of the times, but he has also built. A process to try and limit the losses where it's wrong.

[00:27:20] Alfonso Peccatiello: And so the combination of these two factors, I think it has helped a bit.

[00:27:23] Stacy Havener : Mm-hmm.

[00:27:24] Alfonso Peccatiello: Although there are questions that are still coming from the fact of, oh, but you have a research business. How are you gonna run a research business together with your fund? Which is also an important question because it comes with.

[00:27:34] Alfonso Peccatiello: Compliance and Chinese walls, and how are you gonna manage the two things together? This is still a very valid question, but this is the answer. I think my pedigree or my experience in taking risks at the Dutch Bank and also this fact that the research was always basically tailored as an idea to be very transparent and very applicable and portfolio based, so that people could see basically what was the outcome of the thought process in action and the risk management.[00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Alfonso Peccatiello: It made them a little bit more comfortable.

[00:28:01] Stacy Havener : Well the risk taker to res, I mean you were always a researcher, but the risk taker to researcher, back to risk taker is a great timeline. That's a great timeline because even if people maybe have forgotten that part of your backstory or they didn't know you then, or they didn't even know that that part was your reminding them that this isn't your first rodeo of like actually having a p and l, how do you answer the question about what are you gonna do with the research business and the investment business?

[00:28:29] Alfonso Peccatiello: So we've put up a couple of Chinese world, I mean the model portfolio, which was shared with research clients for the last two and a half years. Obviously that is not compatible anymore with the macro hedge fund. So clearly there needs to be a change there. And the other thing is a very simple employees slash involvement when it comes to actual Chinese walls between the two businesses.

[00:28:51] Alfonso Peccatiello: So. People who work for the research do not work for the fund and vice versa to make sure that the information stays siloed, [00:29:00] especially from a fund perspective, that's quite important from a regulatory standpoint. So we've applied a few Chinese roles, but at the end of the day, the two businesses, in my opinion, are very complimentary.

[00:29:08] Alfonso Peccatiello: I mean, I always take Bridgewater as an example, just because it's easy to take.

[00:29:12] Stacy Havener : Yeah.

[00:29:12] Alfonso Peccatiello: Still today they do have, I think they call them the daily observations. Which is basically the research, pretty much, and they do that alongside with running risks. I mean, you can do research, you can provide frameworks, event analysis, and in general, macroeconomic analysis for people.

[00:29:30] Alfonso Peccatiello: And running a hedge fund is a completely different business. It's all about risk management and people and processes and raising, and so on and so forth. So those two things can be done together, in my opinion. The research is also complimentary to the fund because it forces you to be more rigorous to write down your thoughts and poke holes in your ideas.

[00:29:48] Alfonso Peccatiello: And I think the two things can go along together.

[00:29:51] Stacy Havener : I do too. And in fact, most fund managers are doing, it's not a business per se, so it doesn't have revenue attached to it. But I mean, how many fund managers. [00:30:00] Put out a monthly commentary or a quarterly commentary or write on LinkedIn or just share their thoughts on anything.

[00:30:05] Stacy Havener : I mean, thought leadership, if you don't have it, I mean, I don't even know what we're doing. So, uh, to me it's almost like you've given people, the way you described it makes me feel like you've given people a chance to sort of be a fly on the proverbial wall of your investment committee meetings. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:23] Stacy Havener : All the levels. Mm-hmm. And now you're sort of saying you're still able to be a part of that, but just on the thought leadership part of the investment committee meeting and sort of the portfolio part is over here now for our actual allocators, I think you'll be able to do it. And I wonder too. I mean, you have such a strong social following, but it's also, that's also kind of an interesting experiment, isn't it?

[00:30:47] Stacy Havener : Because I don't know how many people have built the social following first and then launched the fund. I kind of feel like it typically goes in the other direction. So [00:31:00] how's that process been?

[00:31:02] Alfonso Peccatiello: I am not aware indeed, of somebody who's done it the other way. I mean, normally who's built the following on social media has some sort of,

[00:31:10] Stacy Havener : yeah.

[00:31:10] Alfonso Peccatiello: Newsletter. That's what I mean. Research, like software as a service product, something they're selling on a subscription basis. Right. And so. I don't know if somebody was built a followship first. Mm-hmm. Which has come as a byproduct of sharing my ideas online, basically. Mm-hmm. I mean, it just bamboozled me that my Twitter account went to almost half a million people.

[00:31:29] Alfonso Peccatiello: I mean, what, half a million people? But apparently the feedback I get there is you share, uh, educational frameworks. Like, oh, if you wanna, for example, there is like. The bond market. So, and the bond market is like some sort of ivory tower type of market, which is full of jargon and people get lost. And my job there is just demystify.

[00:31:50] Alfonso Peccatiello: Yeah, just make it comprehensible. And when you share these things, people actually appreciate. And you might be surprised, I think, ciy by how many high level allocators. Are [00:32:00] loving that simple breakdown because it helps them have frameworks and then understand what's going on. Yes. I'm not gonna name the name because this, a allocator asked me not to, but it's a very large sovereign wealth fund who reached out a couple of weeks ago because they follow me on Twitter.

[00:32:15] Alfonso Peccatiello: I mean, you could never imagine this. And they say, ah, I've read this thread about, you know, how you're analyzing the Chinese situation and found it very interesting and informative. I don't agree on this and that, but the framework was quite interesting. And so you see how powerful that is. I'm not trying to be prescriptive and tell people what will happen in China.

[00:32:31] Alfonso Peccatiello: Who am I? I don't know. But I'm trying to analyze and break down situations, and people love that. As long as you share it. To share it. Yeah, as long as you share it without asking something in exchange straight away. People love that and that followership, I think I have to say that Twitter nowadays, it's a way, way worse platform than it was a few months ago.

[00:32:52] Alfonso Peccatiello: That's a few years ago. That's my own subjective opinion here. It has become much more political, much more polarized, and much less [00:33:00] informational. But LinkedIn, for example, is exploding if you ask me. So the amount of good level inbound leads and interactions you can get from people that are just. Reading your analysis, appreciating it and reaching out, saying, oh, I see in your bio that hedge fund, you know, you wanna talk about it.

[00:33:16] Alfonso Peccatiello: It might surprise people how powerful that is. And still it requires consistency, though every day you show up, you post good, valuable things, asking nothing in exchange, and that's the hard truth, unfortunately.

[00:33:29] Stacy Havener : Well, the part that I think people don't believe is that part you said about the really smart, really successful, very large allocators are on social.

[00:33:42] Alfonso Peccatiello: They are.

[00:33:42] Stacy Havener : I don't know why this is like when you talk to people about LinkedIn or Twitter, they're. Yeah, but it's retail. And you're like, what? I don't understand where that came from. It's like, no, those people don't hang out on social media. And it's like, well, what do you think they do? They're human. Like what?

[00:33:59] Stacy Havener : I mean, why [00:34:00] wouldn't they be there? What do you think? They're in the library like it's just, I mean, it's just this weird bias that they think they're only gonna be talking to retail people. So that is a huge demystification in and of itself. Absolutely believe it. The other thing I really believe is that this idea that in our industry you can charge more for complexity, right?

[00:34:24] Stacy Havener : You can charge more for complexity. You seem, quote, smarter if what you're talking about is complicated, when really the opposite is true. Like, you know your shit when you can explain it to a five-year-old, not when you can explain it to the CFA Kaya at PhD. You know, person who never leaves their desk or their Bloomberg.

[00:34:47] Stacy Havener : And so the simplification piece to me is an art that a lot of people in this industry cannot do.

[00:34:56] Alfonso Peccatiello: So Stacy, there I learned something, reading a few [00:35:00] books that I would recommend people Yeah. To take a look at on communication. So. One of the other people, which was very important in my career and development, wasn't my mentor, but was somebody who lacked technical skills if you ask me.

[00:35:12] Alfonso Peccatiello: But he was such a great communicator, impressive he could change his pitch from a 10 minutes detailed presentation to a one minute elevator pitch and be as factor in both situations and so. What he taught me is, dude, I mean, you can be as smart as you want, but if you can't convey your message in a very concise way to a senior audience, you're going nowhere.

[00:35:34] Alfonso Peccatiello: And this was a banking thing, okay? So you have to do that with senior people. In banks, they don't have time. But guess what? Guess what? In today's world where our attention span is led by social media, not many people have time. Not many people like listening to you blubbering for 20 minutes straight. I think being concise and effective is still very important, even with allocators.

[00:35:54] Alfonso Peccatiello: So the books or even podcasts that you can listen to, which are very good about it, that I found very good about it. [00:36:00] There is this somebody, I think he was born in Italy, but is probably a US citizen by now. His name is Carmine Gallo.

[00:36:06] Stacy Havener : Yes.

[00:36:07] Alfonso Peccatiello: And Mr. Gallo is excellent. He's a coach, communicator, coach to a bunch of CEOs in Fortune 500 companies.

[00:36:15] Alfonso Peccatiello: He explains how Steve Jobs and Bezos, which are excellent communicators, both of them actually use several frameworks to try and be more effective when they communicate. And the point, I mean, there are some simple shortcuts that you have to train, I think, and then you'll become better at it. But that angle of communication is so important, both from the length and the pauses, and there are various techniques you can use to become a better communicator.

[00:36:42] Alfonso Peccatiello: And also tell a better story because Steve Jobs is a great storyteller, and Bezos as well. And also, when you write something, people often don't have time to read very long, long investment letters. Consider that the average time people are spending scrolling or LinkedIn on Twitter on a single post is something like a few [00:37:00] seconds.

[00:37:01] Alfonso Peccatiello: So you really have those few initial seconds to catch someone's attention, and it's like opening a present if the package doesn't look good. You probably lost interest already and, and this is unfortunately the world we live in, but these are the rules that we have to play

[00:37:15] by.

[00:37:18] Stacy Havener : The Storyteller's Secret. That's the book I just read by Carmine Gallo. Oh, there you go. Yeah. It was really, really inspiring on so many levels, even as someone who considers themselves really steeped in story. I learned a ton. I love that recommendation. I also think. It applies to emails. I mean, in what realm do fund managers and salespeople think that anyone has time or inclination to read a four paragraph to of an email that's all about the person who's sending the email?

[00:37:56] Stacy Havener : Like, what? And you don't even know them. It's like the intro [00:38:00] email for most fund houses. I mean, it's trash. So as you're working, like I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of the simplification and the power of storytelling, the art of it. And the need for white space. I mean the long, whether it's the total length or even just the length of the paragraph, my goodness.

[00:38:24] Stacy Havener : Like how do we feel when we receive those things? Not great.

[00:38:28] Alfonso Peccatiello: No. So I totally agree. I think also when you talk about sharing value with people, even if you are sharing value. I mean, Twitter has this embedded where you could not, I think, exceed 200 characters, something like this. You have to be concise. Now you can, which is a bit different, but in general, being concise is always good, as long as you can be effective.

[00:38:48] Alfonso Peccatiello: We try to strive for pieces of research, which are about seven to 800 words and a couple of charts. So that takes you normally about five minutes to read, and we consider this to be on the high [00:39:00] side. Okay. If it takes you longer than five minutes to read and digest. It's generally too long and the other test you can do, which is excellent.

[00:39:06] Alfonso Peccatiello: And Jeff Bezos had this test for the memos that people were writing at Amazon. So he bound PowerPoint at Amazon, which is also amazing if you ask me, me. So nobody can run a PowerPoint. They actually have to write down a memo where they have to elaborate their thought process and be concise, et cetera. So he actually had the test, I think run, if I remember correctly, where.

[00:39:25] Alfonso Peccatiello: He put these memos on their software that was analyzing what type of grade level? Yes. Of people writing uhhuh. Like if some sort of like a 10-year-old kid can understand what you're writing, that's a good memo. If you need an IQ of 200 to understand what you're writing, then that's not a good memo. And so these are I think, rules.

[00:39:47] Alfonso Peccatiello: And then we are here talking about the hedge fund industry. So why the hell are we talking about that? We're talking about that because the industry doesn't matter. The people listening to you are still. That's right. So they still have a limited time span. They still want to read easy things to read [00:40:00] and digest, and this is very important and I think quite underappreciated when it comes to, I would say in general raising money, but because raising money is about establishing a relationship, and if you cannot be effective in communication, you are not going to establish a relat.

[00:40:14] Stacy Havener : No, and I think that's exactly right because especially in a business that has a very high intellectual component to it, like ours, we think that we're actually selling to the person's intellect. Like we're aiming the pitch at their brain and we're like, we're gonna make the case where there's no way they can possibly think.

[00:40:37] Stacy Havener : That there's like, we're gonna be the best option for them. We're gonna make that case to their brain. And actually, all the studies tell us that the brain is not what buys first. 95% of decision making is subconscious. The heart is like the gatekeeper. I like this thing brain. Why don't you do the due diligence on it?

[00:40:58] Stacy Havener : The brain isn't not even [00:41:00] involved yet, and that switch is like a massive. Reframe on raising money, especially in this business. So I think it's, it's a skillset we all need, but more people in our industry need it for sure. I have one more question on social, or I guess it's bigger than social in some ways.

[00:41:19] Stacy Havener : You've already talked about it, but I wanna just sort of put a pin in it, which is that there's also sort of this stereotype of what mm-hmm. Successful looks like in the investment business. Mm-hmm. White, older, white male, wearing the right suit with the right tie, carrying the right bag, and wearing the right watch and in the right city and went to the right school, and all of those things.

[00:41:42] Stacy Havener : Mm-hmm. And it takes a lot of courage as someone who's, none of those things. To own or be willing or be brave enough or vulnerable enough to not be those things. Mm-hmm. And I think you've done a good job of that, and I wonder if you can [00:42:00] speak to it, like do you even think about it or are you just being you?

[00:42:03] Stacy Havener : And it comes very naturally.

[00:42:05] Alfonso Peccatiello: I think this is the trick here, so I don't want to be successful if those are the features that define whether I'm successful, frankly, like if it's about wearing a suit or having gone to an expensive school, I really couldn't care less so as I said before, the point is, is quite about whether trying to achieve, I mean.

[00:42:27] Alfonso Peccatiello: I have something in my history, which maybe helps as well, taking me this decision. Very likely about eight years ago, I was involved in a very hard car accident, which almost cost me my life. So, you know, it's been a very hard journey to get back from that and being able to walk again. But look, these things basically teach you that.

[00:42:46] Alfonso Peccatiello: You have one shot at this. It's not like there's a replay, there's a re rewind. There's nothing like that. So who do you want to be? Do you want to be somebody that is liked by what industry standard considers to be successful? Or do you want to be [00:43:00] you? Do you want to enjoy the journey? Do you want to to savor it?

[00:43:05] Alfonso Peccatiello: Do you want to work with nice people? Do you wanna be yourself? And I just choose the second one. And if it doesn't fit the hedge fund industry by the standards. That's okay. I'll try to make the part of the hedge fund industry suit me if, uh, certain allocators like what I'm doing. So I have a very smart COO and marketing specialist who help me on the, on the research side.

[00:43:25] Alfonso Peccatiello: And when I told him, you know, I'm, uh, in my garden with my dog, I'm enjoying a Saturday, I am thinking about a certain thing I would like to share with people on LinkedIn. What do you say if I post a picture like that, like with my dog? And he said, so what would be the problem about it? Yeah, but it's the hedge fund guys.

[00:43:39] Alfonso Peccatiello: I mean, they're reading this stuff and it's like, what? They don't have a dog. They don't have a garden. It's not Saturday for them. Oh, what's the deal here?

[00:43:46] Stacy Havener : Exactly.

[00:43:46] Alfonso Peccatiello: And he's right. So you just post a picture and I guess people now tend to be. They know who I am, okay? Mm-hmm. So I don't need to pretend I'm someone in due diligence.

[00:43:57] Alfonso Peccatiello: We had a large investor from Switzerland visiting [00:44:00] us a few weeks ago, and we met at a conference in the Netherlands. He was there and he said, Hey, Alf, you know, uh, I'm looking into your fund. Uh, can I do the due diligence? Said, sure. Ask me all the questions. No, no, no. I mean, can I come to the office? And I'm like, okay, yes, but it's a complete mess, man.

[00:44:14] Alfonso Peccatiello: I mean, you'll come there, there are like boxes everywhere and we are assembling it. You know, it's a new fund. It's like, okay, but what's the problem? I mean, what would I expect otherwise? So he was very open to it. But these are the things, I guess where in general, I think being yourself, being honest and transparent, and showing your vulnerabilities as well.

[00:44:32] Alfonso Peccatiello: Just be yourself. You only have one shot at this. Do you wanna be somebody that. Fit certain standards or do you wanna be yourself and savor the journey? I choose the second.

[00:44:41] Stacy Havener : Me too. And for instance, people like Italian food.

[00:44:47] Yes, they do.

[00:44:48] Stacy Havener : And so I heard, although I couldn't find anything, that at some point in time in part of your social content, you were maybe giving some advice or had a point of [00:45:00] view on it could have been pizza, but it might have been something else.

[00:45:04] Stacy Havener : What was it?

[00:45:05] Alfonso Peccatiello: That's correct. It's pizza. So I come from a place close to Naples and in Napoli Pizza's like sort of a religion basically. So I grew up trying to learn how to do it the proper way. And so I think it was on LinkedIn or something where I posted a video of me making pizza, telling people, you know, today we're not gonna talk about macro, but you know, another passion I have, which is this.

[00:45:26] Alfonso Peccatiello: And you will not believe it, but one allocated from the US reached out saying, you know, we have to look into your fund. First. You have to give me the recipe of your pizza, and then second, we have to look into your fund. And I said, why is that? I said, well, look, we like people that are very transparent and honest because we invest in people.

[00:45:43] Alfonso Peccatiello: It's a new fund, so we need qualitative assessment, and if somebody's willing to post themselves making pizza. Online it means he, he's just himself. You know, I know that you will be very honest. Maybe we don't like you anyway at the end of the day, but at least we want to do the process. So it might seem completely off, but actually [00:46:00] being yourself, it generally helps.

[00:46:02] Stacy Havener : I agree with you. And so what is the takeaway? I mean, you don't have to give us the entire recipe, and none of us are gonna have the oven that goes up to the temperature that you need to make a proper.

[00:46:12] Alfonso Peccatiello: I see you're prepared. Well,

[00:46:13] Stacy Havener : yes, and also, I mean, well we didn't make pizza, but my grandfather was from Italy, and so food is a big thing,

[00:46:19] Alfonso Peccatiello: Uhhuh.

[00:46:19] Stacy Havener : But what should we need to know? Like if there's one thing we need to know about pizza, what is it? And don't say don't put pineapple on it. That should just be like a given.

[00:46:27] Alfonso Peccatiello: No, that's just a given. So yes, you need the oven. That goes to very high temperatures. I'm. Mentioned this in Celsius. I leave the conversion to Faren night to you guys, but say about 400 Celsius at least.

[00:46:39] Alfonso Peccatiello: So your standard kitchen oven is never gonna produce the Nepal pizza, but there are now ovens you can buy for quite cheap in the garden and you know, they get to that temperature. And then the second thing you should not do is torture your dough. So your dough, you know, I'm serious, so you make your dough.

[00:46:58] Alfonso Peccatiello: And then you do some flopping [00:47:00] folds and then you make it there, you give it some rest, you know, stop harassing this door. It eats the air inside to fermentate properly. Okay. Enough with the pizza lessons,

[00:47:10] Stacy Havener : I'm crying. That is so good. Okay, let's end with a couple things. We did pizza, so that kind of covers.

[00:47:18] Stacy Havener : Mm-hmm. And you gave us a book. Mm-hmm. And maybe we all know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. What place inspires you?

[00:47:26] Alfonso Peccatiello: I would say in general Japan, uh, I've been there last year. My wife is very fond of Japan. She even speaks Japanese and she's Italian, so she really likes the culture. If people haven't been in Japan, they should try once in their life because these guys live in a parallel universe and a different planet.

[00:47:44] Alfonso Peccatiello: They see life differently. It's so well connected with nature and just truly, so it's a different way of living, so it's really inspiring.

[00:47:53] Stacy Havener : Love that. Not what I was expecting. So that makes it even better. Okay. How about this one? Well, and we [00:48:00] don't even have to pretend 'cause were you to actually have a speech or go on some sort of chore.

[00:48:06] Stacy Havener : Pretend you're Taylor Swift for a second. You actually would have like stadiums full of fans that would come to see you speak. And so what we need to prepare for should this eventuality happen is what is the song that will be played? As your walkout anthem when you take the stage,

[00:48:23] Alfonso Peccatiello: I would've to name two, but let's go with one then.

[00:48:26] Alfonso Peccatiello: It's Ca Fornication from Red Chili Peppers.

[00:48:31] Stacy Havener : Why? You just love that?

[00:48:33] Alfonso Peccatiello: Yeah. I like red chili peppers. These guys are incredible and they're still going for it. We went to watch a concert, I mean like they're over 70. They're still rocking it, so they're the best. I

[00:48:43] Stacy Havener : love it. That is so, what was the other one?

[00:48:45] Alfonso Peccatiello: It was gonna be Lincoln Park in the end.

[00:48:48] Alfonso Peccatiello: Oh,

[00:48:49] Stacy Havener : okay. Wow. This is fascinating. Okay. What profession, other than your own, would you like to attempt?

[00:48:56] Alfonso Peccatiello: Oh, one of my dreams is to [00:49:00] open a

[00:49:00] Stacy Havener : huge

[00:49:01] Alfonso Peccatiello: animal shelter in the place where I grew up in the south of Italy. There's a a big problem with stray dogs and other animals in general. So, you know, I would love to help out there and do something and make sure they don't live on the street and try to adopt them.

[00:49:15] Alfonso Peccatiello: And so something that has to do with the animal charity basically.

[00:49:19] Stacy Havener : So my husband literally just had this conversation, me with me this week about how this has to be one of our life goals. So, okay. We'll partner with you on that. Okay. What profession would you not like to do?

[00:49:30] Alfonso Peccatiello: Oh, anything that doesn't involve creativity and it's repetitive, it just kills me.

[00:49:35] Alfonso Peccatiello: So put me to do some standard ops or I don't know what, like some compliance, compliance stuff and you're basically killing me. It's the same of like, you just kill me. It's better.

[00:49:46] Stacy Havener : Okay. And last question, and this is a long ways away. What do you want people to say about you after you've retired or left the industry?

[00:49:55] Alfonso Peccatiello: Oh, I know that bald guy, that Italian guy used to read this stuff. [00:50:00] He has this bond market 1 0 1 thing and he taught me how to look at it from a framework perspective. And you know, he wrote this book about macro principles and I can read it and my kids can read it and it's still evergreen and it, you know, it's not always correct, but it teaches a way of tool to look in frameworks if people can say that When I retire, I made it.

[00:50:19] Stacy Havener : Yes. Here's the simple into frameworks and to bald guys who are living their own life, their own way. I am a huge fan of yours, Al. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:50:29] Alfonso Peccatiello: Thanks for having me.

[00:50:31] Stacy Havener : This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products, or to adopt any investment strategy.

[00:50:46] Stacy Havener : Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance. All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute [00:51:00] an endorsement by Stacey Haven or Haven or Capital Partners.

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