Episode 143: She's Sat Across From Hundreds of Managers. Here's What Actually Earns the Yes. Meet Shannon Saccocia, CIO of Neuberger Berman Wealth.
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Shannon is Managing Director and Chief Investment Officer for Wealth at Neuberger Berman, a firm with north of AUM, and she's spent years on the other side of the table, sitting through roughly 300 manager meetings a year. She knows exactly what earns credibility fast. And she knows exactly what kills it.
In this episode, Stacy Havener sits down with Shannon to pull back the curtain on what allocators are actually looking for, and why the managers who win aren't the ones performing. They're the ones listening.
Because the real answers don't come out when you're trying to sound smart, they come out when you're genuinely trying to understand. And the questions you ask say a lot more about you than the vocabulary you use.
Shannon also gets into what it actually means to build solutions from real client problems instead of copying the industry playbook and why a $560B firm can still feel boutique when the mindset is right.
Listen in to hear:
Why courage almost always precedes confidence
What 300 manager meetings a year taught her about what allocators really care about
How she asks questions that make people drop the script
Why focusing on trying to sound smart backfires for PMs in meetings
Why complexity bias can quietly hurt your distributionWhat allocators mean when they say "help us help you"
Why simple, repeatable messaging wins, especially when someone else has to retell your story
More About Shannon Saccocia:
Shannon Saccocia, CFA, is Managing Director and Chief Investment Officer for Wealth at Neuberger Berman, a global investment manager with north of $560B AUM. As a member of the firm's global Asset Allocation Committee, she works closely with investment leadership to establish market views, strategic and tactical asset allocation, and portfolio recommendations for Wealth clients.
Before joining Neuberger Berman in 2023, Shannon served as Chief Investment Officer at SVB Private and Boston Private Wealth, overseeing portfolio construction, manager selection, and asset allocation. She has also held senior roles at Banyan Partners and Silver Bridge Advisors focused on manager selection and portfolio construction.
Shannon holds a BA in Economics and History from Brandeis University and has earned both the CFA and CIMA® designations. She is a longtime CNBC contributor and is regularly featured across financial media. She lives in the Boston area with her husband and two children.
Transcript:
Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors.
[00:00:00] Stacy Havener: My next guest wanted to be a scientist, quiet, analytical, an individual pursuit with no interpersonal stuff, and definitely no sales or public speaking. Ugh, finance wasn't even on her radar. And then one economics class with one really great stats professor, and suddenly the markets started to look a lot like the research she'd always craved, just with more subjectivity and more story.
[00:00:32] Stacy Havener: Today's guest is my dear friend of over 20 years. Shannon Kocha is the Chief Investment Officer wealth division of Neuberger Berman, a $560 billion firm that still runs like a boutique. She's also a familiar face on CNBC's halftime report, a role she almost said no to by the way. One of the things I love about Shannon is the way she built her [00:01:00] career, one step, one job at a time.
[00:01:03] Stacy Havener: She grew into herself and that led her to bigger and bigger roles. As an analyst, she did 300 manager meetings a year. She asked great questions. I know because I was in those rooms, and she earned the right to a very real conversation with fund managers. She figured out earlier that courage has to come before confidence, and that authenticity is something you grow into One uncomfortable room, one uncomfortable moment at a time.
[00:01:35] Stacy Havener: This episode is a masterclass in owning your story, even when that story starts somewhere you never expected. Meet my friend, Shannon. Hey, my name is Stacey Haner. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the Toughest Boys Club, wall Street.[00:02:00]
[00:02:00] Stacy Havener: I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow-on assets for investment boutiques, you could say against the odds. Yeah, understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk here. Money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales and marketing are all topics we discuss.
[00:02:26] Stacy Havener: Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college mixed with happy hour. Pull up a seat, grab your notebook, and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the Billion dollar Backstory podcast.
[00:02:45] Stacy Havener: Wouldn't it be cool if you could diversify your investor base and add some non-US investors? Europe could be fun, or Latin America, maybe Antarctica. Hey, icebergs aren't really my jam, but you never know. You've only got [00:03:00] one problem. How the heck do you do that? Fair question. Maybe this is a who not how thing.
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[00:04:18] Stacy Havener: Fine. One of the things I'm really struggling with is travel, if I'm really honest. Like I, it, I'm tired. Not only do I not really wanna do it because of all the reasons already did it. Yeah. Have a kid. Yeah. But like I'm tired physically. The, it's almost like. If I go out for drinks, my recovery is way longer than it used to be.
[00:04:47] Stacy Havener: Well, it's the same for travel. Like, so I don't know if you feel that too, but like for me, I, I just went to Chicago, you know, ha, it was great. Came back and yesterday [00:05:00] I was a puddle because it was an all day deep thinking late flight, didn't get home till 11:30 PM got up to do the morning routine. And I was like, I just don't, I don't have it in me anymore.
[00:05:14] Stacy Havener: Yeah. That makes me feel so old. Dammit.
[00:05:18] Shannon Saccocia: I, I also think that there's just a, like, there's, there's this impediment at some points to, you know, it's always been like, okay, I can get to next week or I can get to next month. Yes. And, and my next week, next month, next year. At this point looks no different. I
[00:05:38] Stacy Havener: know.
[00:05:39] Shannon Saccocia: And, and isn't going to look different. And so there's either an acknowledgement or an understanding or a level of introspection that I'm making a conscious, explicit choice.
[00:05:52] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:52] Shannon Saccocia: That this is what my, I mean, I'm commuting to a job in a different state. I, I made a conscious decision to [00:06:00] be on the road and as part of my role, my value is in the interpersonal connectivity mm-hmm.
[00:06:09] Shannon Saccocia: That I bring. So that's also defined, you know, as it was, you know, 10 years ago. Increasingly, again, by in-person connectivity. So, you know, I just, because you can do it this way, virtually. Doesn't necessarily mean that people want to do it that way. And um, so I, it's, it's even, I think it's even more existential for me in that I probably have the best role that I've had that's suited best for, so aligned for you.
[00:06:44] Shannon Saccocia: My skillset.
[00:06:45] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:06:46] Shannon Saccocia: But the realization that in that perfect role, there's so much imperfection that you know, that, how do you slice that pie and understand, you know, which pieces you can [00:07:00] continue to fill and which pieces are just going to have to, you know, stay empty because there isn't any way, there's no way at this point that I can fill all those pieces of the pie on a weekly basis or even a monthly basis.
[00:07:11] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. It's just, it's a kind of a, a rolling, you know, rolling work.
[00:07:16] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I say this too, it's like every day I have to make a decision about who I'm gonna let down. Someone is gonna get let down Yes. In my family or at my job, or someone's getting let down just every day.
[00:07:31] Shannon Saccocia: Well, and I, I was, I was talking about this with someone the other day.
[00:07:37] Shannon Saccocia: It's a realization I've had probably over the last three or four months in this role, every time someone comes to me for assistance with something, that one thing
[00:07:49] Stacy Havener: mm-hmm.
[00:07:49] Shannon Saccocia: Is the absolute most important thing to them. Mm-hmm. For that day, that week. Mm-hmm. That month. Maybe even the year.
[00:07:55] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:07:56] Shannon Saccocia: And I'll have 30 of those in one day.
[00:07:58] Stacy Havener: Yes.
[00:07:59] Shannon Saccocia: And so, [00:08:00] and, and, and, and so my level of engagement, enthusiasm, passion about that particular item or particular problem or opportunity, I, I have to temper that because there's no way that I can come to the table for every single one of those with the same level of enthusiasm for somebody for whom they've poured all of their energy into that one thing.
[00:08:24] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Shannon Saccocia: And, and I do. And I, and I feel, you know, I, but on the flip side of that, I also think that makes me a good investor. Yeah. Why? Because, because they're, if you, if you, if you turn that on its head to the investing side of the coin. I'm a multi-asset class investor, so every single person that I work with from an investment perspective, you know, regardless of like where they're sitting in, within fixed income or equities or private markets, commodities.
[00:08:54] Shannon Saccocia: They have such a strong
[00:08:56] Stacy Havener: view. Ooh, yes.
[00:08:58] Shannon Saccocia: And their [00:09:00] view, they're going to bring to the table the strength of that view.
[00:09:03] Stacy Havener: Yep.
[00:09:03] Shannon Saccocia: And it's my job to balance that view out. Yes. And so I think because I've already had to ruthlessly prioritize
[00:09:10] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:09:11] Shannon Saccocia: My time, my engagement, my enthusiasm, it also allows me to balance out their enthusiasm or fear or sense of opportunity and, and kind of narrow that range to, okay, where are we really sitting if I take out that extra emotion that they're bringing to the table?
[00:09:31] Shannon Saccocia: I think it helps me to be a better investor.
[00:09:34] Stacy Havener: Gosh, it's so good. I call it OPP, not what you're thinking though. 'cause we're, we're of that, of the age where that song really resonates other people's priorities. Yes. And right. And so like we, we get served up that, whether it's, you know, on the investment side or just in our day-to-day work or in our personal lives.
[00:09:55] Stacy Havener: And it's the ability, as you said, to really navigate [00:10:00] how much am I, where am I in this? And let me step back and actually look at the whole picture. So let me just say this, you all are listening to two friends who have known each other literally since we like got into the biz. Okay. And we're in the green room talking, and the conversation was so good.
[00:10:18] Stacy Havener: I said, Shannon, hold on, let me just turn the, the, the thing on and, and it's. This is friends. This is real friendship here with a lot of years behind it. So I'm gonna stop us before we just continue on, 'cause we will to welcome you, um, and say how glad I am to see you because you are, you know, doing things that are amazing and big and busy and I almost don't even like the podcast.
[00:10:50] Stacy Havener: Fine. I am just so grateful for this time to catch up with you. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:10:55] Shannon Saccocia: Oh, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I, I, um, [00:11:00] obviously, uh, we have a long personal connection, but also seeing what you've done with this podcast, seeing all of the amazing guests that you had, I feel honored to be here.
[00:11:09] Shannon Saccocia: Oh, that's so nice. So I appreciate the invitation.
[00:11:11] Stacy Havener: Well, and I'm so glad it worked out so. We've already just been chatting about life, work, all the things. I wanna back up, I wanna talk about your journey because you sit here in this really amazing role, um, also on CNBC and doing, you know, all kinds of really big things.
[00:11:32] Stacy Havener: But of course we start from the beginning. And I wanna even go back before you got into this business because is this what you always envisioned? Like, did you grow up saying, you know what, I'm really jazzed about the investment industry. Like, what did you wanna be when you grew up?
[00:11:51] Shannon Saccocia: Uh, the answer is a, a definitive no on that.
[00:11:55] Shannon Saccocia: Um, you know, I, it, and it's interesting, you know, I'll hear [00:12:00] stories like, you know, you have the o opportunity to see someone like Jeremy Siegel talk, for instance, and he talks about how he remembers reading the paper and seeing the Dow Transports index and thinking, I wanna know. Yeah. What makes that go up and down?
[00:12:14] Shannon Saccocia: That was not me. Um, I, I can guarantee you, uh, you know, I, you know, I was, I was, uh, probably more science oriented. Oh, okay. To be honest with you. Um, you know, when I was really young, I, I enjoyed, uh, debate and public speaking and all of those things, but as I got into high school, I became much more introverted.
[00:12:34] Stacy Havener: Hmm.
[00:12:34] Shannon Saccocia: Um, and really wanted to look at careers that could potentially. Allow me to use my analytical skills, my research skills. And so, um, you know, kind of looking at sort of a pre-med landscape, but not necessarily to be a doctor, I had, I wasn't interested in the interpersonal aspect of that whatsoever. Uh, I was really, I was really focused on, oh, could I be a researcher?
[00:12:57] Shannon Saccocia: And I remember, um, [00:13:00] going into college and thinking, okay, well let me go to, uh, a school that provides me an opportunity to take really rigorous science and, and, and to a lesser extent math classes, which again, is also really funny how much math is part of my job. Um, but I, I really wanted to do research and I really wanted to be involved in, in what I felt would be kind of an individual intellectual pursuit.
[00:13:22] Shannon Saccocia: And so that, you know, was really what led me to science and, and. And again, hardly anything to do with, you know, finance whatsoever. It, it wasn't, when I tell you it wasn't on the radar, it was like, not even in the list of things.
[00:13:38] Stacy Havener: Like, not even on,
[00:13:39] Shannon Saccocia: not
[00:13:39] Stacy Havener: even in the orbit,
[00:13:41] Shannon Saccocia: eng maybe engineer, maybe, you know, all Yeah.
[00:13:44] Shannon Saccocia: You know, but, but, but business, like a, a business major, what would, what would I, what would I do with that? I, I, I, I had, I, it was so far afield from what I thought I would be doing, kind of going into school and, um, and that [00:14:00] changed, but I, but I do think that it's, it's helped create kind of that foundation, because I think what led me to science initially, or where I want, why I wanted to go into something in the science field was that there was this, this curiosity that I had and I felt that that was an niche that could be scratched, you know, through research.
[00:14:18] Shannon Saccocia: And, and I felt like that was something that was. Kind of innate in the way that I think about the world was that I, I, I did wanna continue to grow lo grow and learn. And I thought that was such a dynamic feel where things were always evolving.
[00:14:33] Stacy Havener: Mm.
[00:14:33] Shannon Saccocia: That it made sense for me to go into something where I felt I could get that intellectual challenge and stimulation on a longer term basis.
[00:14:39] Stacy Havener: So, which also if, if we didn't know you were speaking about science, and of course knowing what we know now, you could have just been describing the markets. Um, and so what was the plot twist? I mean, did you actually stay with science and think you were gonna get a job? Maybe you got a job in science?
[00:14:55] Shannon Saccocia: No, I, um, I, I struggled, [00:15:00] um, through organic chem and I felt that this is when I was a sophomore and I looked around at the people that were in those classes with me and.
[00:15:10] Shannon Saccocia: How passionate they were about this choice and how the curriculum and the work we were doing was just further defining for them, or compounding their love for this choice that we had make. And I was going in the other direction. I was like, I, I don't think I like this at all. Like I, you know, I could get the grades, I could do the work.
[00:15:34] Shannon Saccocia: I ended up taking an Intro to economics class as part of a requirement to take, you know, some, you know, a soft science, I guess.
[00:15:41] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:15:42] Shannon Saccocia: Um, and I was like, well.
[00:15:45] Stacy Havener: What's
[00:15:46] Shannon Saccocia: this? This is interesting. Yeah. Like this is, is science and it's analysis, but it's also, there's a subjectivity about it. And um, and that's really what, what ended up kind of shifting, you know, my direction and, and so [00:16:00] fortunately I went to school that didn't have a lot of core requirements and so Brande allowed you to, you know, really I completed my major and essentially in two years for, for econ.
[00:16:09] Shannon Saccocia: But I loved the fact that there was this, um, there were so many ways that you could apply economics. There were so many different views and you could look at data and come to, uh, you know, and. Almost indefinite number of conclusions. And that to me was combining that kind of objective analytical rigor with the opportunity to add some level of subjectivity and experience to it.
[00:16:36] Shannon Saccocia: It also helped that, I had a great statistics professor.
[00:16:39] Stacy Havener: Isn't
[00:16:39] Shannon Saccocia: that true? And so it, you know, that alone was like, okay, I can do this. Yeah. Like if I can do stats. I can do this. And, and actually he, he, I think he only taught at our school for a couple of years and then ended up going and working for the Fed.
[00:16:54] Shannon Saccocia: So, um, but I do think that those two things, just kind of taking the class and realizing that I could still [00:17:00] have this kind of foundational scientific backbone to my work, but also be able to apply, you know, my stronger writing skills and the ability to communicate. And, um, I, I liked that aspect of it, but certainly had no idea what to do with that when I graduated.
[00:17:16] Shannon Saccocia: Right. I mean, there were no, there were no internships that I had taken there, you know, I, because I started so late on the path, I came out of school, it said, so what did, what do you do?
[00:17:25] Stacy Havener: What do you
[00:17:25] Shannon Saccocia: do with
[00:17:26] Stacy Havener: this,
[00:17:26] Shannon Saccocia: with a, with an econ degree?
[00:17:28] Stacy Havener: Oh my gosh. Can we just pause on the, on the teacher bit for a second?
[00:17:32] Stacy Havener: Because I really think whether it's in school, going all the way back to grade school even, but also even in our careers. When you have someone who's charismatic and loves what they do and makes it seem fun, like that's contagious in the best way. Even if on paper, a stats class sounds like, you know, not all that [00:18:00] great, and then you get into the class and you're like, this person is bringing it to life and they love it so much that like, it's making me love it too.
[00:18:09] Stacy Havener: And I think that happens in our careers, not just in our education. Like if you're around someone who loves their job and loves what they do, it's so inspiring.
[00:18:19] Shannon Saccocia: It's, it's infectious. Mm-hmm. And it creates a, a, a level of engagement that I certainly wouldn't have had, by the way, professor Paul Harrison.
[00:18:28] Shannon Saccocia: That was the same. Thanks for shout out to you. Shout, thanks for sending me on the chat
[00:18:31] Stacy Havener: to, yeah.
[00:18:32] Shannon Saccocia: Um, so I, I, I think that's what I've tried to bring to your point though, over the course of my career, initially very unsuccessfully. Um, and, and more so in, in recent years, I think somewhat more successfully is I do, and especially not just with my team, but with clients.
[00:18:50] Shannon Saccocia: Right?
[00:18:51] Stacy Havener: Mm.
[00:18:51] Shannon Saccocia: I, I think, you know. When we're talking about something that is particularly difficult or there are a lot of [00:19:00] conflicting views, a lot of noise, that's, you know, that's when I want to lean into that engagement. Mm-hmm. I want to show them that enthusiasm. My voice quickens. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, I, I sit up in my seat.
[00:19:12] Shannon Saccocia: I, there's, because I feel like I want them to know that this is something that I've spent a lot of time on, that I'm really, yeah. I, I'm, I'm engaged and thoughtful and trying to be prescriptive about our views. And so I try to bring them into the conversation the same way, you know, a good teacher
[00:19:29] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:19:29] Shannon Saccocia: Um, you know, an engaged parent the same way we would do to create exci a coach.
[00:19:34] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. You know, I mean, we were, we were both athletes. Yeah. Right. We, you know, the best coaches, you know, kind of guide you to, to love what you're doing. Yeah. Right. And they know how important it is for you to still love what you're doing while attempting to be successful at it. And so bringing that to the table from my experience in school, from my experience on teams, uh, that, that I think is an important piece, just the career trajectory that we all go on.
[00:19:59] Shannon Saccocia: Mm-hmm. [00:20:00] In terms of trying to figure out our leadership style and, you know, how we, how we can create that, that excitement amongst our teams. Yeah. I mean that inspire, I know we throw that around a lot, but. Inspiration comes in different forms, right? And it comes at different levels for different people that you're working with.
[00:20:22] Shannon Saccocia: And so I always try to think about, well, who inspired me in those different points in time? Mm-hmm. And, and there were different ways of doing that depending on, you know, the existing situation or environment.
[00:20:34] Stacy Havener: Yeah. And so let's go back. So you, you, because one of the things I wanna talk about, and we can we'll get there when we get there, is you said, you know, the interpersonal bit was not something that you envisioned doing as you, and now I'm sort of smiling 'cause I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like, your whole life is interpersonal communication.
[00:20:54] Stacy Havener: But when you got outta school and you sort of took this path, okay, here I am. And even when we first met, [00:21:00] you've always been so, you know, smart as a whip. Um, very, very well spoken. What for both of us. Probably we, when we started we were quieter. We were, that introverted side was much more present. Um. The journey, you know, to where we are.
[00:21:16] Stacy Havener: So let's, let's talk about that. Like, you, you, you started, did you start right as an analyst, like right outta school?
[00:21:24] Shannon Saccocia: No, I, I, I worked in operations at State Street. Oh, that's right. I was in mutual fund accounting. Yes, yes. Listen, it was 2000. The, the job market wasn't great.
[00:21:36] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:21:36] Shannon Saccocia: And you know, I had loans, you know, I, I had bills to pay.
[00:21:40] Shannon Saccocia: I had an apartment. I was like, okay, I, I need to work.
[00:21:42] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:21:43] Shannon Saccocia: And so, you know, at the time, you know, you had big companies here in Boston, like State Street, they hired a lot of people. Turnover was pretty high. Those jobs were somewhat mundane. I was like, I'll just get this job and, and see what I do with it.
[00:21:56] Shannon Saccocia: And so, for the first six years of my career, I was essentially [00:22:00] on the operation side of the business. I was an accountant and then I was, you know, managing people. And then I went over and, and started working in a sort of a more, um, consulting type group within State Street. And that really widened the aperture for me to understand that I wanted to be on the investment decision making side versus the operations side of the business or the consulting side of the business.
[00:22:23] Shannon Saccocia: In all of that.
[00:22:24] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:25] Shannon Saccocia: I never felt comfortable and I wasn't necessarily looking for something that was client facing. Even in my management roles, I tended to be quieter. You know, I, I wasn't putting myself out there in terms of wanting to take on additional leadership opportunities around the firm. I just felt as if, you know, I can be a good individual contributor.
[00:22:49] Shannon Saccocia: I honestly didn't enjoy managing. I became a manager for the first time at 24. Didn't love it. Yeah. I was like, I kind of wanna go back to just doing my own thing. You just leave me alone. And I did. Yeah. And I did. I took [00:23:00] it, I took that consulting track job because I was, I could just do my own job again, but I felt like the introversion.
[00:23:07] Shannon Saccocia: Was coming from a lot of different directions for me, but I also just, interpersonal connectivity wasn't something that I really thought you needed to focus on in order to be successful in financial services. I thought you just, you know, you need to get the job done. You need to be good at numbers. You needed to understand the processes and deliver on them.
[00:23:27] Shannon Saccocia: The softer stuff was for sales.
[00:23:29] Stacy Havener: Yeah. You're like, I'm not in sales and I wasn't. Yeah.
[00:23:31] Shannon Saccocia: And I wasn't ever gonna be a salesperson.
[00:23:35] Stacy Havener: So when you took the leap to then go into more of the investment side, 'cause this is where like I remember sitting like
[00:23:44] Shannon Saccocia: we met.
[00:23:45] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I remember sitting in meetings with you, with managers and watching you interview them.
[00:23:49] Stacy Havener: I mean, even though what you were doing then, and I don't know if you noticed or were aware, 'cause always hindsight 2020. Um, I mean, you had to lead the [00:24:00] meetings with very talented, very smart investors at a young age as a woman who didn't really want to be doing interpersonal type stuff. But like when the role you were in, you were probably meeting how many managers, like, and you had to kind of run the meeting.
[00:24:16] Stacy Havener: Oh, I
[00:24:16] Shannon Saccocia: did
[00:24:16] Stacy Havener: three. Yeah.
[00:24:17] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. 300 meetings a year. At least during that time. I mean, this is, this is back in the heyday. Yeah. You remember these days where we would meet with everybody on a quarterly basis and it was all in person. Um, but you're right. It's a really interesting point because I've actually never thought about that.
[00:24:34] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. Until you just brought it up there is what I think it created in me was that it did create a confidence that, regardless of who was in the room
[00:24:43] Stacy Havener: Yep.
[00:24:43] Shannon Saccocia: Really successful portfolio manager. Um, very successful family.
[00:24:48] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Shannon Saccocia: Uh, executives from very large financial institutions, because I had to be in those meetings and because it was my job to ask articulate [00:25:00] thoughtful questions and to derive an evaluation Yeah.
[00:25:05] Shannon Saccocia: From these individuals about whether I felt like, you know, I believed in their process, I believed in their story. I believed in them. In order to do that job well though, you had to create a sense of credibility. For you, right? Mm-hmm. Because the portfolio managers weren't gonna open up and give you their true views on something.
[00:25:23] Shannon Saccocia: They weren't going to be vulnerable and admit a mistake if they didn't respect who you were and the questions that you were asking.
[00:25:32] Mm-hmm.
[00:25:32] Shannon Saccocia: So I took that aspect of my job very seriously, and for all of those meetings, I would come in and say, okay, I know this strategy back and forth. I've looked at all of the information.
[00:25:42] Shannon Saccocia: Mm-hmm. Especially for the managers that we obviously were putting capital at risk with. And that was not just because I felt like I wanted to look good, but actually because I wanted to at least allow the managers to feel comfortable with me. Ooh. So that then I could get them to open up more [00:26:00] to me.
[00:26:00] Stacy Havener: That's so interesting.
[00:26:02] Shannon Saccocia: The biggest challenge with our industry is that I think most people come into a meeting and the intent of that meeting is to make themselves look and feel smart. And my job was to really learn from the people across the table from me, but I knew that they weren't willing to impart their knowledge and their experience to someone who wasn't worthy
[00:26:26] Stacy Havener: Yes.
[00:26:27] Shannon Saccocia: Of that sharing. And so it was never about me coming in and, and having a PM be like, oh, you know, she asked really good questions. It was much more about, that's a really good question and I'm going to give a really good answer.
[00:26:41] Stacy Havener: That is so good. That is so good. And actually, in my opinion, if you had gone about it.
[00:26:48] Stacy Havener: With the intention of this is about how I'm showing up, it wouldn't have worked because it would've made you more uncomfortable. And so actually by giving yourself permission to earn the right, [00:27:00] to get their authenticity and their views, it's almost a twist on reciprocity, but at a sort of intellectual peer level that once they saw who you were, how you thought, the amount of prep work you had done, the questions, they were like, oh no, this is, we're peers.
[00:27:19] Stacy Havener: We are talking, you know, at the same level. And I think confidence comes from that. Confidence comes from you actually earn confidence from courage. So people think, oh, confidence precedes courage. No, right.
[00:27:36] Shannon Saccocia: No, I love that. You're so right. That is so well put. So true. And something that I think gets lost in this, especially for people that are just entering our industry.
[00:27:49] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. They assume they have to come in confident, which can sometimes be confused with arrogance.
[00:27:56] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:57] Shannon Saccocia: And instead of trying, you know, and that courage that you [00:28:00] need to have to speak up should come from extensive prep. Knowing what you're talking about, knowing your role, reading body language, reading the cues around the room, asking for advice and guidance.
[00:28:11] Shannon Saccocia: That's how you build confidence. And then to your point, that translates to courage. You can't start with it because it's not going to appear authentic or genuine.
[00:28:20] Stacy Havener: Exactly. And, and you know, some of it too is like, are you willing to be uncomfortable? Are you willing to go in rooms where. You're nervous where, you know, maybe it's outside of your comfort zone just because you'd rather be at your desk behind your computer, working on your own stuff.
[00:28:39] Stacy Havener: Yeah. And are you willing to do that? That takes courage and all of the confidence of then the reps, you know, you do 300 meetings, that's just on the manager side, plus all the client meetings you're doing, plus all the executive stuff you're doing. After a while you're like, you know, I might even kind of like this.
[00:28:56] Stacy Havener: Like only because you were brave enough [00:29:00] to keep going in those rooms and showing up with excellence. And so let's just kind of continue with the story. So that's forward. Yeah. You go, you go. You're an analyst. Um, for how many years were you on the investment research side?
[00:29:13] Shannon Saccocia: So it was probably, let's see. I did that role for probably seven years where it was just, you know.
[00:29:23] Shannon Saccocia: Like, I did some equity work, I did some trading work. I, but I did a lot of manager work. Mm-hmm. As you know, and, and, and eventually headed up that function of, of manager due diligence, which I mean, to this day is, um, it's still,
[00:29:36] Stacy Havener: I know
[00:29:37] Shannon Saccocia: it's, that's still the comfort zone, right? Like, oh, you wanna sit me in a meeting with a manager?
[00:29:42] Stacy Havener: You're like,
[00:29:42] Shannon Saccocia: okay,
[00:29:42] let's
[00:29:43] Stacy Havener: go. Yeah.
[00:29:44] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. Like, it's just like fun. Yeah. You know. Um, and then really, you know, right around 2013 or so, um, morphed into a broader role around asset allocation portfolio construction was still, still heading up due diligence, but a little less involved in the day-to-day meetings Right.
[00:29:59] Shannon Saccocia: [00:30:00] Ahead of team of people doing that. And it seemed at that point that it was a natural extension. One of the things that. I think being a generalist, doing manager due diligence and then having the economics background that I had was it, it allowed me to get really comfortable and articulate around different asset classes.
[00:30:18] Shannon Saccocia: 'cause I had, I had talked to managers across so many parts of the market, public, private, looking at different areas of opportunity. And so it just, it was a natural move for me to get more involved in portfolio construction and asset allocation, just given that backdrop. And I knew that at that point. I sort of had my eyes on a, you know, I'd love, I'd like to be a CIO at some point, and I knew that I needed to spend more time on crafting the actual solutions.
[00:30:47] Shannon Saccocia: I mean, I could throw up products into an asset allocation all day, but how did they work together? Did they resonate with the end client? And that's where the shift for me really started. Mm-hmm. In thinking about being more external facing Yeah. Than internal, [00:31:00] because I knew that if the solutions that we were building didn't make sense to clients and didn't resonate, then it didn't matter how great.
[00:31:07] Shannon Saccocia: A manager that I'd been introduced to was if knowing it was using it. And the easiest way to get people to use those products was to explain how to use them in the context of a broader portfolio solution.
[00:31:19] Stacy Havener: I just wanna pause on that last bit because I think. Oftentimes fund managers and their sales teams and, and their product people, they don't really get up to the level where the allocators are functioning or, or as I like to say, they don't put themselves in the allocator's shoes.
[00:31:38] Stacy Havener: We sort of try to, but if we really wanna do that, well, we have to take that generalist view. We have to take that allocation view and say, okay, the whole portfolio is not gonna be our fund. There's gonna be other stuff in there. There may be other managers in that asset class. And really understanding that for people to [00:32:00] envision that we have to play a role, not be the whole thing.
[00:32:05] Stacy Havener: 'cause it's just not real.
[00:32:07] Shannon Saccocia: And I think starting with the expectation that it needs to fit into a portfolio solution. I mean, you need to get your way in the door.
[00:32:17] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:32:18] Shannon Saccocia: And you can expand your allocation over time. That's right. Because I mean, we're constantly looking at, okay, we've paired these managers or.
[00:32:25] Shannon Saccocia: You know, even in the last couple of years there's been some exposures that, you know, frankly are not as prevalent across diversified funds. And it's like, okay, actually I remember talking to this manager that does this, like let's slot that in. Mm-hmm. But you go in and you say, you don't need Diversified X us.
[00:32:42] Shannon Saccocia: You just need a Europe fund and a Japan fund. But okay, well I think I do. So that's probably not going to work. And that was always a question that we would ask because even if I came into the meeting with a manager and I was thinking about this, and I do this, you know, for our internal teams at Newberger now too, [00:33:00] I would have an idea about how I would size a manager and I would have an idea about how I think they would work alongside other strategies that we're utilizing.
[00:33:10] Shannon Saccocia: But I find that managers who are able to articulate how they would fit into a portfolio, how they would work, or potentially be redundant and, and maybe care, you know, be to a different manager that shows me that they do understand, to your point, my challenge.
[00:33:26] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:33:26] Shannon Saccocia: And I'll tell you, I don't know that there's been a ton of progress on that over the last 20 years because I still get a lot of, well just put 10% in and Okay.
[00:33:39] Stacy Havener: I remember, I remember, um, what a great client, founder, super smart. We did like a group meeting at a conference, like, Hey, we're gonna do this panel, you can meet the manager. And a bunch of of my allocator friends came to it and. The founder, fund manager was [00:34:00] definitely eccentric and sort of just would go and, and it was, and he said on the panel, this is designed to be your whole portfolio, despite all of the prep work and all of the things that I, and I remember one of my allocator friends just looking at me in the, and going like this with her arms in the air.
[00:34:18] Stacy Havener: And I actually stopped. I was like, okay. I said the person's name on the, on the fund manager. And I was like, okay, wait. Like that's just not real. Like, so that's just not ever gonna happen. So, so understood. That's how you to
[00:34:31] Shannon Saccocia: the question,
[00:34:32] Stacy Havener: that's how you designed it. That's fine. But now I need you to unpack that in the context of a portfolio.
[00:34:38] Stacy Havener: I mean, on what planet Does anyone say, I mean, I get why you're saying it, but like it's just never, that's not real.
[00:34:45] Shannon Saccocia: There's such a fine line between. Understanding that like commerciality, that, that word right,
[00:34:53] Stacy Havener: yes.
[00:34:54] Shannon Saccocia: Has so many different definitions in our world. And, and I feel that there [00:35:00] is still this undercurrent that if I'm not allocating for my strategy, if I'm not allocating for my product than no one is.
[00:35:08] Shannon Saccocia: And, and I think that that's just, it's misguided. Mm-hmm. Because again, I think your strategy speaks for itself and your process and the way that you think about things. If it is truly differentiated, you know, you can certainly drive that home, but it's, is it differentiated to what I already
[00:35:24] Stacy Havener: have's
[00:35:24] Shannon Saccocia: it?
[00:35:25] Shannon Saccocia: That's, that's the real question. And so I think that that's in essence like what we're all trying to do, whether it's through differentiating our own value proposition with clients or working with managers to do that, or interviewing managers to potentially come onto the platform. I think we're just always trying to think about, listen, we want some things to be different.
[00:35:47] Shannon Saccocia: We want some things to be the same. Yeah. I mean, institutional rigor, an actual process, some, you know, succession of, of senior people. We would love all of those things to be in place. Right. But I think at the end of the [00:36:00] day, the design aspect is so much more important than, I think most people understand.
[00:36:06] Shannon Saccocia: There's all these studies and you've, you've heard them and you know, 90 plus percent is about asset allocation. Yeah. And that's really more about just keeping people in their seats. To be honest with you. Those numbers are based on do people go to cash and try to come back in? Yeah. And, but. That interplay of the underlying managers for many clients is where they spend a lot of time on a day-to-day basis.
[00:36:29] Shannon Saccocia: You don't change your overarching strategic asset allocation all that often.
[00:36:33] Stacy Havener: Hmm.
[00:36:33] Shannon Saccocia: But if you're meeting on a quarterly basis, what are you talking about? Yeah. You're talking about that implementation. And so really understanding how that fits together fits, and then being able to, at least in my seat, and working directly with clients, being able to be an ambassador or an evangelist for that underlying strategy so that the clients understand why it's in there.
[00:36:54] Stacy Havener: Yep.
[00:36:54] Shannon Saccocia: That's really important. And so it's being commercial, it's having a message, is having a value [00:37:00] proposition, but it's also having one that can be easily relayed. By people when you're not in the room.
[00:37:05] Stacy Havener: Yep.
[00:37:06] Shannon Saccocia: And having that resonate
[00:37:08] Stacy Havener: right
[00:37:08] Shannon Saccocia: with whoever they're discussing on your behalf essentially. Right.
[00:37:11] Stacy Havener: And this is something I think fund managers also miss because oftentimes, for whatever reason, and it's probably ingrained in our industry on some level, some zero sum game like alpha, not, not alpha, the MPT stat, but like alpha from a human perspective of like going into a meeting and trying to, like you said earlier, prove how smart they are.
[00:37:33] Stacy Havener: And then it's like, let me show you all the complicated stuff that I do in this. It's so smart, isn't it? Like complexity bias? Do you see it? This is so, so smart. A, that sucks on so many levels. And b to your point, like at some, if you were, as you go out the adoption curve and get larger allocators in more institutional settings, the investment people aren't going to be the [00:38:00] ones that are talking to the clients necessarily.
[00:38:03] Stacy Havener: So now you're, you've, you've done this very deep dive investment stuff. You've communicated it, maybe the investment person likes it and puts you, but now a relationship manager is gonna explain your, uh, derivative strategy to the client. That's a disaster.
[00:38:23] Shannon Saccocia: And it also puts the advisor in a really difficult position because they don't have the bandwidth.
[00:38:30] Shannon Saccocia: To go to that level of complexity on every strategy. Right. That they're potentially, you know, considering for an allocation, they also, their role, at least in, in my view. Yeah. And you know, I've been in the advisory business for a very long time. My role as an investment person in whatever capacity I'm present in that conversation as the CIO or as something else, is to support the advisor and help them to look more competent and credible.
[00:38:57] Shannon Saccocia: Yes. And so, sticking a [00:39:00] solution on the platform that requires an intense amount of education. The, the likelihood is, is that they're gonna see that as potentially a hindrance to their credibility.
[00:39:11] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:39:11] Shannon Saccocia: Rather than something that, you know, we found this really complex thing now, again, clients differ from Yeah.
[00:39:17] Shannon Saccocia: Client to client. Some really like complex strategies. You and I both know that. Mm-hmm. Um, but at the end of the day, I, I think what we're really looking for is listen, dig into the things that we ask you to dig into. We wanna make sure that we understand the fundamentals of the strategy, but also help us help you.
[00:39:35] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:39:36] Shannon Saccocia: Like, let's, let's have something that can be clearly articulate. Let's talk about how it pairs nicely with things that you know are in most portfolios.
[00:39:44] Stacy Havener: Exactly.
[00:39:44] Shannon Saccocia: There was so many wealth management firms, and there are so many ways that wealth management firms allocate, but there are a lot of similarities to the way that those portfolios are constructed based on our assumptions and the way that modeling works.
[00:39:58] Shannon Saccocia: And so you have a [00:40:00] blueprint. As a manager, manager as a pm and you know, I, we have lots of them at Neuberger, and there's a blueprint. We kind of know the way that it's gonna fit into a portfolio. And can you, at points in time nudge out a little bit of a bigger piece? Can you mm-hmm. Can you elbow out some room for your strategy?
[00:40:16] Shannon Saccocia: Absolutely. But understanding the fundamental tenets of how portfolios are built and acknowledging that, that that's never going to go out of style. No. I think that that's going to continue to be really important.
[00:40:27] Stacy Havener: Agreed. Let's be real. No one wakes up and says, I can't wait to build some operational infrastructure today.
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[00:41:50] Stacy Havener: That's U-L-T-I-M-U-S. You've got the investment strategy, the vision, the track record. Now [00:42:00] it's time to upgrade the engine behind it all with ultimas. So we talked about your evolution from analyst to CIO, and I wanna talk about your evolution from CIO at. Large boutiques, but still boutique in nature to now where you sit at Neuberger, which is also kind of a boutique in some ways, but certainly a much bigger organization.
[00:42:26] Stacy Havener: How has that been for you going from like, you know, the NST of boutiques and kind of getting larger and larger and now sitting at, at a very large firm?
[00:42:38] Shannon Saccocia: I love the way you talked about that in terms of starting at the niches of boutiques in over 17 years, just continuing to be acquired by a larger, larger firms.
[00:42:46] Shannon Saccocia: So, um, I think there's probably a lot of people listening to this that can, uh, can relate to that journey, if you will. So I think it kind of, it's a great question and I think it goes back to, you know, when I [00:43:00] became A-C-I-O-I, you know, I became a CIO at 39 and, and there is, we were talking at the, the beginning of this about, um, you know, where do you go from here?
[00:43:10] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. And I think when I became a CIO the first several years we're just trying to figure out what type of CIOI wanted to be. Mm. I had at least come to the realization that. In the couple of years prior to becoming a CIO, I realized that I didn't necessarily wanna follow somebody else's blueprint on what that meant.
[00:43:27] Shannon Saccocia: And I knew I wanted to craft my own vision and version of this role. Mm-hmm. And so the first couple of years were really spent doing that, figuring out it's not all that different than when we hire people. Right? Like, what am I good at,
[00:43:38] Stacy Havener: right?
[00:43:38] Shannon Saccocia: What do I wanna hire people to help me do? What do I doing to take off my plate?
[00:43:42] Shannon Saccocia: What do I need to spend more of my time on? And that helped to craft the type of CIO that I wanted to be, which was one that was very client facing, um, to use the word in, in the way I use it, commercial.
[00:43:52] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:53] Shannon Saccocia: Um, and then strategic in being a partner with our advisors with trying to grow the business.
[00:43:58] Shannon Saccocia: Like those things were very important to me. Mm-hmm. I [00:44:00] knew my piece of that was at the bottom layer of the value pyramid in multiple wealth management firms. That's where investments sit. And then we go up, I would say Neuberger, maybe we, we have a, a little bit bigger base because of, you know, our, our background and, and the, the ethos of our firm as being in asset management.
[00:44:17] Shannon Saccocia: But the first few years were really finding that. And so when I came to Newberger, there were a couple of very specific reasons that I came here. Number one, I had been a consumer of solutions for a very long time and I worked with a lot of firms and you know this from our interactions where, you know, people would say, Hey, we're thinking about something like this, or mm-hmm you know, this is a new concept.
[00:44:39] Shannon Saccocia: Or, you know, can we show you a pitch and see if it lands? What do we need to do better? I really liked that aspect of the job and I, I liked that collaboration, but I wanted to take it a bit further. I feel like the wealth environment ecosystem is going to be so important over the next 20 years in our industry, and I wanted to be part of [00:45:00] the creation of solutions to solve problems for wealth.
[00:45:02] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:04] Shannon Saccocia: Neuberger has a very strong kind of presence and background in wealth, but they also have a very clear expertise in working with institutions. And I was like, great. So I know I've got that institutional rigor, I've got the foundation. Um, it's an investment management firm. It's it, you know, the guiding undercurrent of everything we do is around investments, right?
[00:45:25] Shannon Saccocia: And so I wanted to go to a place where that was the focus, because I felt that if I was able to be part of that front edge of solution building, that not only would our clients benefit from that, but I thought, you know, in some ways, you know, the clients we serve for, you know, within other firms, you know, those that, that utilize our strategies within their allocations could benefit from that, benefit from that expertise and knowledge.
[00:45:49] Shannon Saccocia: And then the final thing was, is, you know, it's employee owned. And I, I love that. I feel incredibly accountable and responsible in every role I've ever [00:46:00] had. And so whether that was accountability to my teams, accountability to my peers, my cross-functional leaders, shareholders, you know, that I spent 10 years at, you know, public companies.
[00:46:11] Shannon Saccocia: Um, but I wanted to align that accountability knowing I would feel it. I was like, well, wouldn't it be great to align with partners around me who are all aligned in the same manner and aligned with our clients in this kind of solution building experience? So for me, the job has changed a lot in that sort of front end.
[00:46:31] Shannon Saccocia: Also, there's, there's a clear alignment on. What we value in terms of resourcing our investment teams, resourcing, you know, innovation in areas like ai, all of that. To me, there, it wasn't, my time wasn't being pulled in different directions for things that, number one, I didn't feel I had particular experience in.
[00:46:55] Shannon Saccocia: Like, I, I don't know what deposit rates should be, right? Mm-hmm. And, and I was probably not someone [00:47:00] who needed to be opining on that. And so kind of moving to an area where I felt like I could really add value in a number of different areas from a strategic perspective, I felt like this was the place because everything touches investments at Neuberger.
[00:47:15] Shannon Saccocia: And that's my core competency.
[00:47:17] Stacy Havener: Yeah. It's so well said. And I, so what is Neu Berger's total a UM across everything?
[00:47:23] Shannon Saccocia: I think we're upwards of 560 billion. Right. That's massive. Across public and private. No. And so that's the thing, but, but you talked about the boutique. That's
[00:47:31] Stacy Havener: the, but it feels like a boutique,
[00:47:34] Shannon Saccocia: but I think it feels like a boutique because we've retained that entrepreneurial spirit.
[00:47:39] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. And that commitment to this is, you know, we're not, we're not looking at the playbook that everybody else is using and saying, okay, we need to do that too. We're actually responding to things that our clients are bringing to us and saying, we need to solve for this. Yeah. And we say, okay, well we, we could probably solve for this.
[00:47:58] Shannon Saccocia: And then [00:48:00] understanding. Okay. Does that make sense for then this cohort mm-hmm. Of our clients? Is this something that we could modify
[00:48:06] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:48:07] Shannon Saccocia: You know, incrementally to, to meet this need? Um, well, if this firm is coming to us with this challenge. Maybe we should go out to some other firms that we work with and say, Hey, is this a challenge for you guys too?
[00:48:19] Shannon Saccocia: Is this something that you'd be interested in? So I think in that way, that's why it feels like a boutique, because we still have that ethos around trying to solve problems for clients on the investment side with deep investment resources. There's a lot of longevity in our firm as well. Mm-hmm. And so I think that feels very boutique like as well.
[00:48:39] Shannon Saccocia: You know, we have really high employee intention rate, retention rate, but that's because I think there is this, you know, genuine view feeling and that transcends, I think just, okay, let's go down a product map and see, you know, you've done this. Yeah. Right? You've seen this, you've seen this exercise. That's not really [00:49:00] how things work here.
[00:49:01] Shannon Saccocia: And so I think it does end up feeling like you could come to the table with an idea and say, Hey, I'd like to incubate this and. You know, if you'll be great,
[00:49:10] Stacy Havener: it's so great, and not just because you're there, but even in other parts of my world with fund managers and stuff, I wanna tell you, like, I have such respect for Neuberger, for how they show up for people, and in the green room we can talk more, but I, I, it's a great, great firm and I think you are a great fit for them.
[00:49:33] Stacy Havener: And so, and vice versa. I wanna talk for a minute about sort of media, Shannon Kocha, because that is, again, if we go back to your initial, you know, backstory. I mean, would you ever have thought that you'd be sitting on CNBC on television? I mean, was that the farthest thing from science? Shannon's like. [00:50:00] Yeah.
[00:50:00] Stacy Havener: So,
[00:50:00] Shannon Saccocia: yeah.
[00:50:01] Stacy Havener: How did that
[00:50:02] Shannon Saccocia: happen? I'm still surprised, by the way, there are still days when I look around and go, what am I doing here? Um, yeah. You know, science Shannon did not aspire to, uh,
[00:50:14] Stacy Havener: to be
[00:50:15] Shannon Saccocia: TV Shannon.
[00:50:16] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:50:16] Shannon Saccocia: No. But
[00:50:17] Stacy Havener: here
[00:50:17] Shannon Saccocia: we are. I mean, ra, you know, voice for radio maybe, uh, you know, so, uh, no, I, listen, I, I actually think this, this comes out of, um, a moment of mentorship that I think is really important.
[00:50:30] Shannon Saccocia: So, when people ask me this, because they don't believe me, I, they sort of add on to that, is that the reason I didn't go to business school is I didn't wanna have to present mm-hmm. Projects. Mm-hmm. And so this, this is, it really has like, affected, it affected negatively in some ways, a lot of, of, of my life.
[00:50:47] Stacy Havener: Mm.
[00:50:48] Shannon Saccocia: But I remember presenting in a team meeting, and this was probably, I don't know, 2010, 2011, you know, so 15 years ago now. And I remember presenting it [00:51:00] actually probably was later 12 or 13. I remember presenting in a team meeting and, um, my boss at the time coming to me and was like, listen, you're great analyst.
[00:51:07] Shannon Saccocia: You have these great conclusions. You just need to get more confident in communicating them. And if you don't, I, I think, you know, you're probably gonna have less of an impact than you could have now. Meanwhile, you know, I was like, I think I'm doing all right here. I mean, you know, I've gotten a couple promotions.
[00:51:24] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. You know, I've, I've, I've moved up in the world. You know, I, I, I don't know, maybe I had a low bar for myself, but, uh, but that, that was really something that I took to heart and I just started working on it. And so. Then the opportunities were presented probably starting about 10 years or so ago. You know, and it would, it started with radio, that's why I mentioned it.
[00:51:46] Shannon Saccocia: Mm-hmm. And I was like, radio is great. Yeah. Because I'm just talking. Right. It's, you know, I don't have to worry what I'm looking, like if I'm making weird faces, I have an expressive face. Same. So I had to, I've had, I've had to work on that, but I, I remember it, it all [00:52:00] just happened really fast. And I think that was good.
[00:52:02] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:52:02] Shannon Saccocia: It wasn't like you couldn't
[00:52:03] Stacy Havener: think about it.
[00:52:04] Shannon Saccocia: I was trying. Yeah. I was, you know, I was ca I was like, okay, our PR team, I wanna be on tv, I wanna do this, like get me on, do this. It happened really fast. I did radio, I did a couple of, of, of kind of live shot, well live to tape
[00:52:17] Stacy Havener: mm-hmm.
[00:52:18] Shannon Saccocia: Things for Reuters. And then I got a call from Bloomberg because I had done some things for Bloomberg Radio and they're like, we'd love for you to come into the studio.
[00:52:25] Shannon Saccocia: And I just remember being like, oh my gosh, this is, this is so farfield. I still have pictures from, I'm
[00:52:31] Stacy Havener: sweating
[00:52:32] Shannon Saccocia: for
[00:52:32] Stacy Havener: you.
[00:52:32] Shannon Saccocia: I, I brought a friend, like I was like, some, someone come to the studio with me, I have a bunch of pictures because I thought I would do this one time. Yeah. I was like, let's take, oh, hair and makeup.
[00:52:41] Shannon Saccocia: Let's take it. Yeah. All of it, because this is gonna be the only time that it ever happens for me. Um, and so I started doing Bloomberg. They started asking me back CNBC started doing CNBC and it really was within a Stacy within a year it went from me doing three minute, you [00:53:00] know, little segments where I got to give all the notes and tell them exactly what I wanted to say and what I wanted them to ask me to auditioning for halftime report.
[00:53:09] Shannon Saccocia: I said no, when I reached out, I was like, I am, I am not the right person for this. This is an hour long live show, this face. And so I felt really nervous. Mm-hmm. Um, that entire time and, and it, and it actually wasn't comfortable for a very long
[00:53:29] Stacy Havener: time. Yeah.
[00:53:30] Shannon Saccocia: It was very uncomfortable. I didn't know what my role is, was or was on the show.
[00:53:36] Shannon Saccocia: I know what my role is now, but I didn't know what my role was on the show. There are a lot of big personalities. Yeah. Great people, but big personalities on those shows. And it took me a while to find, and I didn't enjoy it. That was the thing. It's like people were like, oh, it's so cool to be on tv. I, I wasn't having fun the first couple of years.
[00:53:56] Shannon Saccocia: I just wasn't, I was, I was so [00:54:00] nervous. Oh, I was terrified. Of course, every time I got on, I was terrified. I mean,
[00:54:03] Stacy Havener: hello. Who wouldn't be like, that's so normal,
[00:54:07] Shannon Saccocia: but everybody else's enthusiasm about it, to your point. Was so high. And, and you know, my, my firm was excited about it. My family was excited about it.
[00:54:18] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. My husband's parents were excited about it. They would watch. I was like, oh, I feel like I'm doing something that people can relate to. Yeah. And so over time I was like, okay, you just thought I gotta find a way to, to enjoy it. And how I did that was I just decided to just be me and stop worrying so much about yay.
[00:54:34] Shannon Saccocia: Who I needed to be. Yeah. What my personality was. I have a very dry sense of humor. I am not gonna get, you know, too amped up or fiery. I'm not gonna fight with anyone. But, you know, I'll, I, I can come on and I can be that, that I, I have a role and I think I still have that role to this day, but that wasn't, that took me a couple of years to find.
[00:54:57] Stacy Havener: That's great advice. And I know, look, [00:55:00] I talk about authenticity all the time, and I know you storytelling and all the things and it, and it, it's kind of like one of those things where everyone goes, sure. Yeah. Be yourself. Okay. Got it. Right. Like, also I think there's a lot of people who think you can't actually do that.
[00:55:15] Stacy Havener: So it's like really nice to say, but it's not actually real. And when you say that you decided to be yourself, you mentioned dry sense of humor, um, what are the other things that you feel like you were able to lean into? So that we can say to people, like when we say that, here's what we mean.
[00:55:38] Shannon Saccocia: So I think, at least in, in my, mm-hmm.
[00:55:40] Shannon Saccocia: As it relates to tv, yeah. I really felt that I would look around the desk on a day-to-day basis and I would be like, okay, this person has, you know. The zingers. Mm-hmm. You know, this person comes to the table with like amazing amounts of data, every single
[00:55:58] Stacy Havener: mm-hmm.
[00:55:58] Shannon Saccocia: You know, earnings report, [00:56:00] operating margins.
[00:56:01] Shannon Saccocia: Um, other people came to the table with much more of a kind of a tactical view. And so what I said is like, well, what am I good at? Hmm. Well, I'm an economist. Um, most of the way that I look at the world is with some sort of macro lens.
[00:56:15] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm.
[00:56:15] Shannon Saccocia: And I understand the drivers of revenue and because I, I, you know, I like under, I, I invested in equity.
[00:56:24] Shannon Saccocia: Yeah. So it wasn't like I couldn't talk about the portfolio that we were managing and what we were doing on that, but I wanted to give the perspective that was maybe the other side of it, which was longer term drivers. Most of the clients that I work with are long-term investors, and so I wanted to root my.
[00:56:40] Shannon Saccocia: Analysis and evaluation, and the comments that I would make and ones that I would want someone to look at to listen to me if I was sitting across the table for them,
[00:56:48] Stacy Havener: which is love that,
[00:56:48] Shannon Saccocia: yes, this company is this right now, or this sub-industry, or this sector is having these challenges, but here's some longer term drivers.
[00:56:56] Shannon Saccocia: Here's why we think there's opportunities over the next 6, 12, 24 months. [00:57:00] And that allowed me actually to bring in more of my macro views, which is, again, you have conversations, right? In your role. Mm-hmm. Where someone leads you down a path that you don't wanna go
[00:57:11] Stacy Havener: down. Yeah.
[00:57:12] Shannon Saccocia: Right. And I think many people respond to that by giving and fear answers.
[00:57:17] Shannon Saccocia: Mm-hmm. Or by scrambling. The best thing that TV's ever done for me is like, I don't really want to answer that question, so how can I pivot that to something that I'm much more comfortable Yes. Talking about? And so that's what I realized is that I probably wasn't going to be able to, um, compete. Mm-hmm.
[00:57:35] Shannon Saccocia: And I use that term.
[00:57:36] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:57:36] Shannon Saccocia: You know, in, in, you know, in quotation marks, compete with people that had their particular, uh, level of expertise in certain areas. But I definitely could compete if I was focused on mine.
[00:57:48] Stacy Havener: Ah.
[00:57:48] Shannon Saccocia: And so I, I felt that that, and that really changed my comfort level. Yes. To your point, our, our, our talk about confidence and courage earlier.
[00:57:57] Shannon Saccocia: Once I decided that I [00:58:00] wasn't going to put that pressure on myself to remember what operating margin was for Apple last quarter, and instead talk about, you know, the use of smartphones and, and the saturation and how much a part they are of our, our day-to-day lives and how much spending was gonna come off of them, you know, through wearables or whatever.
[00:58:17] Shannon Saccocia: Game changer for me.
[00:58:18] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:58:18] Shannon Saccocia: And then it, so 'cause it just got easier. Yes. The noise lessened. It was like, just stay where you're comfortable.
[00:58:26] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:58:26] Shannon Saccocia: And um, and it was, it was actually more consistent as well with if, if clients would see me on TV and then I would them it love that part. Consistent message. I didn't have to be someone different.
[00:58:38] Stacy Havener: Exactly. And I think that's such great advice because it's really understanding what you are uniquely good at and not trying so hard to be what you think other people want you to be. And that doesn't mean that we're, you know, authenticity doesn't mean that we're sharing everything. [00:59:00] You can still have boundaries.
[00:59:01] Stacy Havener: It just means that you, you decide with courage that I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna. Fall into this shoulds thing. This is who I should be. This is the, this is the information. I should say, wow, that person over there, they're so impressive. I should be more like them. It's letting that go. That's, I think what we mean.
[00:59:24] Stacy Havener: Find out what you are really good at and then lean into it. And the, the extension, which I've never thought about but is such a great one of in a day to just on the daily, what are you doing? What are you talking about? What lights you up in your just day-to-day work? And then if you're gonna be in a role, whether it's TV or on a podcast or you know, do something that's more visible, just pull that thread forward.
[00:59:52] Stacy Havener: You don't have to do some other thing. Now
[00:59:56] Shannon Saccocia: there's a joke with lots of people who see the way that I [01:00:00] operate and, um, I don't prep a lot for specific things, but I do an immense amount of prep. For what I do on a daily basis. Exactly. I do a ton of reading. I do a ton of talking. I do conversations, grab a coffee, ping somebody on teams and be like, Hey, I just saw this.
[01:00:19] Shannon Saccocia: Like what am I missing here? Mm-hmm. But in terms of, okay, we, you know, we need to have a an hour long prep session and we need to go through the questions like for the most part. I don't, I'm like, we can do whatever you want. Yeah, we can, you know, I, I spoke to a group of students here in Boston a couple weeks ago, and they sent over some questions and, um, they were like, you know, we might wanna change these, blah, blah, blah.
[01:00:42] Shannon Saccocia: And I was like, that's fine. Yeah. Like, world's your oyster. You actually don't, you don't, you don't need, you can ask me whatever you want.
[01:00:47] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[01:00:48] Shannon Saccocia: And, um, yeah, especially at like a career type panel. Yeah. Because I was like, oh, you wanna ask me what I did wrong? I'd love to talk about that. Uh, but I feel like that to me, and so I think that there's this, people who don't know me that [01:01:00] well are like, oh, like she doesn't even need to prep.
[01:01:02] Shannon Saccocia: And I was like, oh no, I'm constantly prepping. 'cause I'm constantly reading. I'm constantly talking to people. I'm constantly like, what? And I'm thinking about, okay, what could this mean? What, what does that mean? What, Hmm. This, there there's an, there's an incompatibility between these two things. Somebody's making this conclusion and yet.
[01:01:20] Shannon Saccocia: I see it this way. Like, what, what am I missing?
[01:01:23] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm.
[01:01:23] Shannon Saccocia: And so I think this, this idea of prep when you're in a role like mine. Yeah. I mean, if I, I gotta read all the time. I've gotta be talking to people all the time, but I don't, but I can come into a conversation with you or with anybody else, or with a client and I'm like, listen, I, you know, I just need to know the basics.
[01:01:40] Shannon Saccocia: Like, let's go.
[01:01:41] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[01:01:42] Shannon Saccocia: Because the best conversations,
[01:01:44] Stacy Havener: oh,
[01:01:45] Shannon Saccocia: they're organic. That's right. And, and I'm less, I am less effective if I prep too much. Okay. Because then I've got this treasure trove of things and I'm like, oh yeah, I've gotta pick, I've gotta get that out and I've gotta like hit that. And
[01:01:58] Stacy Havener: I agree
[01:01:58] Shannon Saccocia: with this.
[01:01:58] Shannon Saccocia: It's like that, [01:02:00] that, um. It's always sunny in, in
[01:02:02] Stacy Havener: Philadelphia,
[01:02:03] Shannon Saccocia: like Philadelphia that like whiteboard with all the, that's me when I prep that and it's not a good, that's not a good me.
[01:02:09] Stacy Havener: No. And I think generally speaking, this is true for most people. We can over prepare, especially on the investment side, right?
[01:02:17] Stacy Havener: Like investment people, because we're maybe not as comfortable in social settings or certainly on tv. We feel that the way we're gonna combat that is over prepare. But then we start saying, well, I need to memorize things.
[01:02:30] Shannon Saccocia: Yes.
[01:02:30] Stacy Havener: And this is horrible when you see people freeze on a stage, the reason they freeze is because they've lost their place in something they've memorized and they can't get it back.
[01:02:43] Stacy Havener: Mm-hmm. But you don't freeze if you're just talking. Right. Yeah. You don't.
[01:02:47] Shannon Saccocia: Right. No, absolutely. And I feel that And you don't, you don't freeze in fear.
[01:02:52] Stacy Havener: No.
[01:02:52] Shannon Saccocia: That is like, you could pause
[01:02:54] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[01:02:54] Shannon Saccocia: And make sure that you're going Yeah. Going down the, the road that you wanna go down with this particular [01:03:00] thought.
[01:03:00] Shannon Saccocia: But that, yeah, that this look,
[01:03:03] Stacy Havener: oh God,
[01:03:04] Shannon Saccocia: that's, you know, that and I, and I feel terrible.
[01:03:07] Stacy Havener: It's, it's ho it's so, oh, when
[01:03:08] Shannon Saccocia: that happens.
[01:03:09] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[01:03:09] Shannon Saccocia: Oh my gosh, I'm so, yeah, because I, you're right. I know you know exactly what's happening there, whereas it's probably what, what they're talking about is probably just so easy for them.
[01:03:20] Stacy Havener: Yes.
[01:03:20] Shannon Saccocia: Just to talk off the cuff. I
[01:03:21] Stacy Havener: know. Alright. You've been so fantastic. I could talk with you forever. Avs, can I ask you some quick, fast, fiery type questions here at the end? Sure. Okay,
[01:03:31] Shannon Saccocia: sure.
[01:03:31] Stacy Havener: You mentioned books and that you love to read. So this is supposed to be easy, but it might be difficult recent book you could even do that inspires you, doesn't have to be business, but it can recent book that inspires you.
[01:03:43] Shannon Saccocia: So I continue to go back to, um, and I've read it a couple of times now. I love the psychology of money and I know a lot of people say that as their fa as their favorite book, but. The reason I go back to it on a regular basis is that it genuinely [01:04:00] helps me to connect with my clients and remind myself that my advice is contingent on understanding their situation.
[01:04:11] Shannon Saccocia: Mm-hmm. And so I love that book and I read it for different reasons and I, so I, I know it's not that recent, but it is something that I think it's so fine. Mm-hmm. It's worth a re reread on a regular basis, because if you're working with private clients, and that's, you know, my, my background right, is all in wealth management.
[01:04:28] Shannon Saccocia: I just think it's a really good reminder that we can sometimes get really focused on this is the right way to do things and it may just not be compatible. Yeah. With that person's previous experience,
[01:04:38] Stacy Havener: also great storyteller, fantastic writer. Like so much inspiration in that book. On, on,
[01:04:44] Shannon Saccocia: yeah. Morgan, many levels, Morgan's amazing and Yeah.
[01:04:47] Shannon Saccocia: But yeah, the, the book is, the book is worth a reread on a regular basis.
[01:04:50] Stacy Havener: Okay. We're going from books to places. So what place inspires you? What's your happy place?
[01:04:58] Shannon Saccocia: Well, you and I have this in [01:05:00] common and it's the beach. Yay. And I love the beach. And, um, and my beach is, uh, so I love, I love the cape. So, um, anytime I, I drive over the Sagamore Bridge and it's just better.
[01:05:11] Shannon Saccocia: It doesn't actually matter if I'm working, if I'm not working. Yeah. If, you know, we're there for two days, if we're there for 10 days, um, that's my happy place. I find that just. The lack of noise.
[01:05:23] Stacy Havener: Yes.
[01:05:24] Shannon Saccocia: And the ability to sit there and immerse yourself just in listening to the water is so freeing for me. And so, um, that, that's my happy place that I love.
[01:05:34] Shannon Saccocia: It doesn't have to be in the US either. I'll take a beach almost anyway.
[01:05:36] Stacy Havener: Same. Don't ask me to get in the water though, but I, but place me near it.
[01:05:41] Shannon Saccocia: No. Right there at the edge.
[01:05:43] Stacy Havener: Yes,
[01:05:44] Shannon Saccocia: exactly. Me too. Me too. Yeah.
[01:05:46] Stacy Havener: Okay. Um, if CNBC ever said to you, Hey, Han, today we're gonna play your walkout anthem, you know, as the little segue into halftime report, what would it be?
[01:05:58] Shannon Saccocia: Oh. [01:06:00] So this is actually a, a, a tough, a tough one because it was a, um, Mariana Rivera's walkout song, but, and her sandman by, oh God, Metallica would, would definitely be mine. Yeah. There's, there's no, there's no question. And so as a Boston Red Sox fan, obviously,
[01:06:16] Stacy Havener: oh, chill.
[01:06:16] Shannon Saccocia: There's a, there's a connotation there, but that would definitely be my
[01:06:19] Stacy Havener: thing.
[01:06:19] Stacy Havener: Yeah, that's a great one. Okay. What profession, other than your own, would you like to attempt?
[01:06:26] Shannon Saccocia: I would love to be a florist. Um, and
[01:06:29] Stacy Havener: as you have this beautiful plant sitting right there with
[01:06:32] Shannon Saccocia: you, oh yeah, no, no, no. These, I gotta replace these all the time. These, these do not get the love that they deserve.
[01:06:38] Shannon Saccocia: They did during COVID. But, um, I wanna be a florist because I feel I would be a florist because there's, um, whether you're grieving or whether you're happy or whether you're having a baby, you get a bouquet of flowers. They correlate that, that experience with something beautiful. Oh. And so I, I just, I [01:07:00] feel like being a florist would be so fulfilling and especially kind of putting together those types of things for people that, um, to mark something that's, that's really important.
[01:07:09] Shannon Saccocia: A new relationship. You know, I, I don't know. I just,
[01:07:11] Stacy Havener: I love that answer on so many levels. Also, there's a book, I'm looking at my bookshelf, I'm gonna find it. And, and I'll have to send you one, which is the language of flowers, because every flower has like a, it's symbolic or has a message that, and I find that type of stuff so interesting.
[01:07:32] Stacy Havener: That is so inspiring. Flip side, what profession would you not like to do?
[01:07:37] Shannon Saccocia: Ooh, I don't know that I've ever thought about that. Um, in, in great detail. Uh, you know, I, I think at this point in my life, I would probably. I probably not wanna be a politician.
[01:07:54] Stacy Havener: Well, because it is the antithesis of what you just talked about, your journey of kind of [01:08:00] owning who you are authentically.
[01:08:02] Stacy Havener: There's so much of that role that is the opposite of
[01:08:05] Shannon Saccocia: that. I, I say that because in everything that's, I, I wrote when I was younger, you know, elementary school and all those things, were like, what do you wanna be when you grow up? I always put the president of the United States.
[01:08:17] Stacy Havener: Of course you did.
[01:08:18] Shannon Saccocia: So of
[01:08:18] Stacy Havener: course
[01:08:18] Shannon Saccocia: you won't.
[01:08:19] Shannon Saccocia: So you know that, but yeah, I, I, I don't think I'd, I don't think I'd wanna be a politician at this juncture, but you're right, I, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't wanna do anything in which I felt that I had to in any way limit my ability to do what I think is right.
[01:08:34] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[01:08:34] Shannon Saccocia: And to act in, in the right manner and also, and as that's a big part of who I'm
[01:08:39] Stacy Havener: Yeah, I agree.
[01:08:40] Stacy Havener: You can retract the president of the United States comment. You're allowed. Alright. Last and not least, and also very far away from here, hopefully. What do you want people to say about you after you've retired or left the industry?
[01:08:54] Shannon Saccocia: Uh, so what I would love to say is that they thought I was a good manager [01:09:00] and leader and that.
[01:09:01] Shannon Saccocia: I gave them one or two pieces of good advice that helped them in their career. Um, I, I spend a lot more time now thinking about my legacy over the next 10 years as bringing things that I've done wrong, mistakes that I've made, and things that I've done right. And, and bringing that to my teams, my peers, mentees.
[01:09:23] Shannon Saccocia: Um, so if, and, and I've already had this happen, I've had people come to me and say, Hey, remember you told me I should do this? Ah, that's been really helpful. I've realized how gratifying that is. Mm-hmm. So I would love for people to think about that. I mean, I would love to be a trailblazer, but I think women, there's women before me that have trailblazed the way for me.
[01:09:40] Shannon Saccocia: But if I could be remembered on an individual level with people that have worked for me, that would, that would mean a lot.
[01:09:46] Stacy Havener: Gratitude is its own kind of currency, isn't it? It's a very valuable currency. And this makes me think of the beginning of our conversation and that professor, the statistics professor, um, and how.
[01:09:59] Stacy Havener: [01:10:00] Inspiring that point in time was for you. I know just from my interactions with you that you are already doing that, that you are already having such amazing impacts on people, either in one-to-one or from afar, and I just feel super grateful to be a friend on the journey. Thank you so much for being here, Shannon.
[01:10:21] Shannon Saccocia: Oh, thank you, Stacy. It was so wonderful to be here with you.
[01:10:24] Stacy Havener: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products, or to adopt any investment strategy.
[01:10:38] Stacy Havener: Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance. All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Haven or Haven, or Capital Partners.
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